Does evolution inevitably lead to annihilation of species?

[Squareinthecircle]

Today we see threats of nuclear war, experimental medication being dispensed and er, strongly recommended by government purportedly to combat what looks to be a released virus that men made. We are seemingly at the precipice of potential extinction at every turn. Advancements allowed for these activities, in science, math, etc- and humans.

Maybe the corona virus was leaked on purpose, maybe not, but the official line is that it was an accident. Since the common man is not privy to the details of their "gain of function" particulars we are right to mistrust and fear.

I started to consider the idea that the eventual destination of evolution might be annihilation of the species. Whether this adds clarity or muddies the waters some there are reports that there is strong evidence of a past nuclear war on Mars of all places.

This idea explains the Fermi Paradox as well.

[OceanBreeze]

I was ready to write this off as yet another crackpot post, until I started to look into it a bit and found that it contains at least a grain of truth.

It is entirely possible that a self-sustaining natural nuclear fission reactor caused a massive nuclear explosion on Mars in the distant past.

I only say this is a possibility because there is evidence that a much smaller event happened here on Earth about 2 billion years ago.

Don’t take my word for it; “On 25 September 1972 the CEA announced their finding that self-sustaining nuclear chain reactions had occurred on Earth about 2 billion years ago.”

The CEA is the French Alternative Energies and Atomic Energy Commission (CEA).

Source: Wikipedia

Make of it what you will; (I’m not sure what to make of it)

[Squareinthecircle]

On 11/29/2024 at 4:39 AM, OceanBreeze said:

I was ready to write this off as yet another crackpot post, until I started to look into it a bit and found that it contains at least a grain of truth.

 

It is entirely possible that a self-sustaining natural nuclear fission reactor caused a massive nuclear explosion on Mars in the distant past.

 

I only say this is a possibility because there is evidence that a much smaller event happened here on Earth about 2 billion years ago.

 

Don’t take my word for it; “On 25 September 1972 the CEA announced their finding that self-sustaining nuclear chain reactions had occurred on Earth about 2 billion years ago.”

 

The CEA is the French Alternative Energies and Atomic Energy Commission (CEA).

 

Source: Wikipedia

 

Make of it what you will; (I’m not sure what to make of it)

 

Yes I've seen that- who knows what to think.  Thanks for taking me seriously, but what about the bulk of the theory?  

[OceanBreeze]

19 hours ago, Squareinthecircle said:

  Thanks for taking me seriously, but what about the bulk of the theory?  

I agree with the basic idea that we need to become more sophisticated,  enlightened, and compassionate to our fellow humans as we become more technologically advanced. Just as you don’t give a child a loaded gun to play with, we need to keep weapons of mass destruction out of the hands of people who harbor feelings of superstition, fear and ignorance towards  others. Unfortunately, our biological and technical evolution has not eradicated those outdated religious beliefs and other human ideologies that lead to such harmful feelings towards others.

I’m afraid you did muddy the waters when you wrote “there are reports that there is strong evidence of a past nuclear war on Mars of all places.” Your post would have been much better received without adding that!

 

[Halc]

On 11/26/2024 at 7:47 PM, Squareinthecircle said:

Today we see threats of nuclear war, experimental medication being dispensed and er, strongly recommended by government purportedly to combat what looks to be a released virus that men made. We are seemingly at the precipice of potential extinction at every turn. Advancements allowed for these activities, in science, math, etc- and humans.

Maybe the corona virus was leaked on purpose, maybe not, but the official line is that it was an accident. Since the common man is not privy to the details of their "gain of function" particulars we are right to mistrust and fear.

I started to consider the idea that the eventual destination of evolution might be annihilation of the species. Whether this adds clarity or muddies the waters some there are reports that there is strong evidence of a past nuclear war on Mars of all places.

This idea explains the Fermi Paradox as well.

The Fermi paradox articles call this the 'great filter', some test that a technological species must pass in order to not get filtered out. It does not look well for humans. Problem is, our current civilization depends on technological continuity to maintain itself. War is one way that ends, but so is the simple exhaustion of non-renewable resources. Once gone, that's it. We cannot advance again and the species reverts to just an animal with an expensive brain that might be more of a hindrance than a help. One has to eat an awful lot of food that other animals don't need, in order to feed the expensive toy.

On 11/29/2024 at 7:39 AM, OceanBreeze said:

It is entirely possible that a self-sustaining natural nuclear fission reactor caused a massive nuclear explosion on Mars in the distant past.

Despite the frequent depiction in fiction ('Aliens' come to mind), nuclear reactors cannot explode. At worst they melt down, arguably a worse fate than a bomb, but not one that is quite as fun to depict on the big screen.

 

16 hours ago, OceanBreeze said:

I agree with the basic idea that we need to become more sophisticated,  enlightened, and compassionate to our fellow humans as we become more technologically advanced.

The species needs to act for the benefit of the species instead of the individual. I know of almost nobody capable of that. Our core moral code even forbids it. We're quite doomed to fail the Fermi test.

I notice that several people might point out the problem (as I am doing here), but nobody posits a solution (including me).

Edited Wednesday at 11:54 PM by Halc

[OceanBreeze]

5 hours ago, Halc said:

Despite the frequent depiction in fiction ('Aliens' come to mind), nuclear reactors cannot explode. At worst they melt down, arguably a worse fate than a bomb, but not one that is quite as fun to depict on the big screen.

Yes, as we know, the conditions required for a nuclear explosion involve a rapid, uncontrolled chain reaction in a compact mass of fissile material under high pressure. Knowing this, when a reactor is built, it is designed to prevent creating those conditions. Specifically, the reactor cores are designed so they do not build up the high pressure needed for a nuclear explosion.

What is being discussed here is a hypothesis for a naturally occurring (not man made) nuclear fissile reactor on Mars. According to the source paper:

The Martian Large, Natural, Paleo-Nuclear Reactor Hypothesis:

“In Mare Acidalium, a large ore body of incompatible elements formed with concentrated uranium, thorium and potassium at kilometer depth, probably from an asteroidal impact. Due to the lack of plate tectonics, the ore body was not disrupted over Mars history but supported nuclear fission reactions based on a thermal mode. This process began 1billion years ago when 235U was three percent and may have been triggered by a deep intrusion of groundwater into the ore body due to loss of geothermal heat on Mars. The body was of high concentration of uranium and thorium oxides. After many millions of years in operation the paleo-reactor managed to begin breeding fuel in the form of 233U and 239Pu faster than it was burned up. Much radioactive potassium was also created by the neutron flux during this period of thermal neutron operation. At some point the ore body suffered a “prompt critical” and the water boiled out making the neutron spectrum harder and a runaway chain reaction on the 233U and 239Pu ensued. Because of the size of the ore body, and its burial at kilometer depth, the reaction was inertially confined or “tamped” so that explosive disassembly was delayed until a high degree of fission burn-up was achieved. The resulting energy release was catastrophic and resulted in an explosive disassembly of the ore body as a dust and ash cloud similar to a large asteroid impact.”

It is a hypothesis only. “The occurrence of such a large natural reactor may explain some puzzling aspects of Mars data, such as the superabundance of K and Th on the surface and the large inventory of radiogenic isotopes in Mars atmosphere.”

Make of this what you will, I am not convinced either way. I do find it interesting.

[Halc]

18 hours ago, OceanBreeze said:

“In Mare Acidalium, a large ore body of incompatible elements formed with concentrated uranium, thorium and potassium at kilometer depth, probably from an asteroidal impact. Due to the lack of plate tectonics, the ore body was not disrupted over Mars history but supported nuclear fission reactions based on a thermal mode. This process began 1billion years ago when 235U was three percent and may have been triggered by a deep intrusion of groundwater into the ore body due to loss of geothermal heat on Mars. The body was of high concentration of uranium and thorium oxides. After many millions of years in operation the paleo-reactor managed to begin breeding fuel in the form of 233U and 239Pu faster than it was burned up. Much radioactive potassium was also created by the neutron flux during this period of thermal neutron operation. At some point the ore body suffered a “prompt critical” and the water boiled out making the neutron spectrum harder and a runaway chain reaction on the 233U and 239Pu ensued. Because of the size of the ore body, and its burial at kilometer depth, the reaction was inertially confined or “tamped” so that explosive disassembly was delayed until a high degree of fission burn-up was achieved. The resulting energy release was catastrophic and resulted in an explosive disassembly of the ore body as a dust and ash cloud similar to a large asteroid impact.”

That's really cool.  I am hardly qualified to comment, but when has that stopped me?

Whacked hard enough to drive the ore down a km, but soft enough to not splatter the stuff all over.  Hard sell, that one.

The fission takes place on Mars but not the asteroid pre-impact. Seems unlikely since the concentration should be higher before impact.  But the ore sits there for a super long time until water does something to what, pull it together?  Water does do stuff like that, so maybe. 

Now it needs to be a bomb, which apparently is triggered by critical mass, and the subsequent boiling off of water. That's not going to happen in a short time since the water has nowhere to go quickly.  Geyser maybe, with the overall pressure holding in the rest.  Without the water, it goes all bomb on us, much slower than our weapons, but far more pressure keeping it there while it goes on. Eventually the pressure breaks the surface and you get this crater, a lot like Mt St Helens depressurizing in 1980.  Where is that?  How much does Martian weather erase craters like that?  All they have is wind driven dust. So what, it fills in?  Look for a deep sand hole?

Just vocalizing my naive thoughts. I admit none of it seems to kill the idea. My strongest skepticism is at the top, before all the alchemy takes place.

 

Since we're going off topic (sort of), it turns out they recently found the world's oldest fossilized forest, right by me (bicycle ride away), one old enough to push back the date of the earliest real trees.  What they mostly have is a cluster of root systems, really big ones, like with a 15 meter footprint.

Edited Friday at 12:29 AM by Halc

[Squareinthecircle]

On 12/18/2024 at 3:48 PM, Halc said:

The Fermi paradox articles call this the 'great filter', some test that a technological species must pass in order to not get filtered out. It does not look well for humans. Problem is, our current civilization depends on technological continuity to maintain itself. War is one way that ends, but so is the simple exhaustion of non-renewable resources. Once gone, that's it. We cannot advance again and the species reverts to just an animal with an expensive brain that might be more of a hindrance than a help. One has to eat an awful lot of food that other animals don't need, in order to feed the expensive toy.

Despite the frequent depiction in fiction ('Aliens' come to mind), nuclear reactors cannot explode. At worst they melt down, arguably a worse fate than a bomb, but not one that is quite as fun to depict on the big screen.

 

The species needs to act for the benefit of the species instead of the individual. I know of almost nobody capable of that. Our core moral code even forbids it. We're quite doomed to fail the Fermi test.

I notice that several people might point out the problem (as I am doing here), but nobody posits a solution (including me).

Nice.  I haven't studied the Paradox much but guess I should get to it.  

Surviving the "filter"- I can think of futures worse than not making it.

[Squareinthecircle]

On 12/19/2024 at 4:23 PM, Halc said:

That's really cool.  I am hardly qualified to comment, but when has that stopped me?

Whacked hard enough to drive the ore down a km, but soft enough to not splatter the stuff all over.  Hard sell, that one.

The fission takes place on Mars but not the asteroid pre-impact. Seems unlikely since the concentration should be higher before impact.  But the ore sits there for a super long time until water does something to what, pull it together?  Water does do stuff like that, so maybe. 

Now it needs to be a bomb, which apparently is triggered by critical mass, and the subsequent boiling off of water. That's not going to happen in a short time since the water has nowhere to go quickly.  Geyser maybe, with the overall pressure holding in the rest.  Without the water, it goes all bomb on us, much slower than our weapons, but far more pressure keeping it there while it goes on. Eventually the pressure breaks the surface and you get this crater, a lot like Mt St Helens depressurizing in 1980.  Where is that?  How much does Martian weather erase craters like that?  All they have is wind driven dust. So what, it fills in?  Look for a deep sand hole?

Just vocalizing my naive thoughts. I admit none of it seems to kill the idea. My strongest skepticism is at the top, before all the alchemy takes place.

 

Since we're going off topic (sort of), it turns out they recently found the world's oldest fossilized forest, right by me (bicycle ride away), one old enough to push back the date of the earliest real trees.  What they mostly have is a cluster of root systems, really big ones, like with a 15 meter footprint.

Roots?  Sounds like what they did to the Brazilian Rosewood tree relatively recently- and now they're even digging those up to use.  These ancient ones likely ended up with a different fate I hope anyway.  But yeah it's cyclic. 

[Squareinthecircle]

On 12/17/2024 at 10:52 PM, OceanBreeze said:

I agree with the basic idea that we need to become more sophisticated,  enlightened, and compassionate to our fellow humans as we become more technologically advanced. Just as you don’t give a child a loaded gun to play with, we need to keep weapons of mass destruction out of the hands of people who harbor feelings of superstition, fear and ignorance towards  others. Unfortunately, our biological and technical evolution has not eradicated those outdated religious beliefs and other human ideologies that lead to such harmful feelings towards others.

 

I’m afraid you did muddy the waters when you wrote “there are reports that there is strong evidence of a past nuclear war on Mars of all places.” Your post would have been much better received without adding that!

 

 

 

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/cia-rdp96-00788r001900760001-9.pdf