Entrepreneurial Bum Seeks Advice!

[IDMclean]

I have thought about that route Pyrotex. Really I have. Not only have I thought about it but I have tried it and it doesn't fit my plans. I understand that such things fit the majority's plans, however as I have been told I am at least 3-4 sigmas from the norm.

 

I refuse to do food service, so instead I did construction. I have been attending community college since I was 16 and I am now 20, so far I have only a track record of failure. I can accept failure as it is not a set back but a step in the direction that I am pursuing, serving to teach me what I don't know. The school system and the various people who pay for my education can not accept failure as a natural part of learning. It would seem that they feel it is a waste of their time, effort, and money.

 

Hence my idea. Also my idea isn't to the exculsion of attending college, in fact quite the opposite.

 

Now, this is not excuse but explination, I know I CAN take the popular path and it would ultimately work out, serving the objective that the popular path leads to but for me that is not good enough. The popular path will not lead to where I need to go. Hence my unconventional nature.

 

In chico, CA we have a community college 10-20 miles outside of town, and a CSU in town. A large percent of the permanent population of Chico are either undergraduates with an Associate's or graduates with a Bachelors. When competing for a job at a fast food resturant, I am competing often enough with some one who would be seen to be far more qualified than I am.

 

On top of that Out of towners from the larger city have been buying up Chico property and developing because of the housing market. So the population is quickly outstripping the job market.

 

Once again I would like to take a moment to say this is simply what it is. It's not an excuse but an explination of the situation so that you all can better understand my position and why I have chosen the path that I have. I make no apologies for my life strategy. I know where I am going, and how I am going to get there, it just takes time and some people around me are less than patient. Many people are of course looking for the "get rich quick" route to fame and wealth. I am not looking for such things.

 

I still plan on doing this experiement. However I realize I need time to plan out the specifics of it so I have it planned for the beginning of next year.

 

Slow and steady wins the race.

[Buffy]

I have thought about that route Pyrotex. Really I have. Not only have I thought about it but I have tried it and it doesn't fit my plans. I have been attending community college since I was 16 and I am now 20, so far I have only a track record of failure. I can accept failure as it is not a set back but a step in the direction that I am pursuing, serving to teach me what I don't know. The school system and the various people who pay for my education can not accept failure as a natural part of learning. It would seem that they feel it is a waste of their time, effort, and money.

Have you thought about why it is that you "fail?" How do you define failure?

 

I know personally that I tend to perefer to hire people who have tried many things and have not succeeded for exactly the reason you seem to have: its a real learning experience. People who have had nothing but success tend to be the ones who have succeeded by being lucky enough to ride someone's coattails or simply be in on the rising tide that raises all ships.

 

Its the answer they give me when I ask them why they failed that tells me everything.

 

Failure is in the eyes of the beholder,

Buffy

[IDMclean]

I fail for a number of reasons. One of the most prevalent is that I feel no urgency of the situation. Most Students get themselves whipped up into a frantic frenzy, where they must do everything now, now, now. I myself refuse to take time out of my sleep and personal care (feeding, socializing, education) to accomplish things which I know I will accomplish on my own anyway, irregardless of whether I do so while in that school sememster or not.

 

By fail I mean I get c's d's or f's. I realized recently that is because what I have assumed to be 40 hours of work turns out to be 60 hours of work. 12 units is 60 hours of work per week or more. This next spring semester I plan on taking 6 units of classes with an expected commitment time of 30 hours a week, leaving me 30 hours a week to work on my personal projects.

 

I don't do things which do not serve my purposes. What serves my purpose is wide but none the less certain things like Fast Food work do not serve my purpose, they serve only to hinder my progression towards my objectives and therefore are to avoided whenever and where ever possible. I value my time greatly, it's one of the only things I truly have which is truly limited.

 

So failure in class is but only a step towards success. Teaches me either way what I don't know but need to know more about. My standards (and tolerances) of success and failure differ greatly from that of much of the society. I feel personally that my standards are much higher than that of the majority, but then again I could be wrong hence my constant awareness and evaluation of my life plan, standards, and tolerances.

[Buffy]

I myself refuse to take time out of my sleep and personal care (feeding, socializing, education)

That--out of context--is a really good thing. I stopped pulling all-nighters freshman year. They are counter-productive--its easier to take an incomplete, or make it up in other ways--and you miss out on so many things other than school (like some really awesome Grateful Dead concerts).

 

But I took this out of context:

...to accomplish things which I know I will accomplish on my own anyway, irregardless of whether I do so while in that school sememster or not.

So many things having to do with "success" in life are about schedules set by others. Half of the credit comes just in showing up: you don't actually have to *do* anything.

 

When you have as strong of principles as you do KAC, its very easy to have a visceral hatred of going through useless motions just because some one says they want you to. It is a waste, but its also true that you'll never convince that person that it is.

 

Here's the secret: They ask you to do dumb stuff all the time, but you'll find that it takes almost no effort to go through the motions (or if you're really slick, make it *look* like you're going through the motions without really doing so; see Ferris Bueller for tips).

 

Now is that dishonest? Not really. Its what's expected. Ironically, its just this kind of activity that will dramatically affect your success as a panhandler! If you don't play the part and go through the motions that make people feel like its worthwhile to help you out, they won't give you money. You're going to have to do things that might appear to be "wasted effort" or something you could "do later" but unless they see the image that affects their "give money" brain center, there will be no quarters in your cup....

By fail I mean I get c's d's or f's. I realized recently that is because what I have assumed to be 40 hours of work turns out to be 60 hours of work. 12 units is 60 hours of work per week or more. This next spring semester I plan on taking 6 units of classes with an expected commitment time of 30 hours a week, leaving me 30 hours a week to work on my personal projects.

1) This is a really good strategy: many people really do better with a lighter load. I know very few people who are on the 4-year program these days.

 

2) Be careful of the conclusions you might draw here: Units on *average* might be proportional to hours of work (they're supposed to be) but they rarely are. Nor are those hours similar kinds of work: I had one class called "The Intellectual History of the US:1865-present" that had a *required* reading list of over 100 books in 10 weeks (lovely, easy to read stuff like William James) and only a mid-term and a final. It was one of the easiest classes I ever took, but took massive amounts of time. I had another class on computer architecture where they made us design a complete computer from basic logic blocks that was also a massive time sink, but it was involved in drawing pages and pages of huge chip diagrams. I barely passed that one, but I did even though I had major errors throughout the whole thing, simply because I put in the effort and went through the motions even though I knew I wasn't learning much in the process. (Now you know why I went into software rather than hardware...).

I don't do things which do not serve my purposes. What serves my purpose is wide but none the less certain things like Fast Food work do not serve my purpose, they serve only to hinder my progression towards my objectives and therefore are to avoided whenever and where ever possible. I value my time greatly, it's one of the only things I truly have which is truly limited.

I'm all for taking short cuts when you can. Its important not to underestimate the value of seeming detours. Me a hot shot at Berkeley worked summers doing inventory at a department store. It was even less rewarding than fast food. One of my most important recommendations for biz school came from my manager there though. Verrry useful.

My standards (and tolerances) of success and failure differ greatly from that of much of the society. I feel personally that my standards are much higher than that of the majority, but then again I could be wrong hence my constant awareness and evaluation of my life plan, standards, and tolerances.

And this is the thing you might want to think about. I'm pretty *sure* that your standards are *way* higher than most people, and that's a *really* good thing! But I get the feeling you haven't spent a lot of time analyzing why people have the standards they do. I am sure you will look at them and find them wanting--so many people do reward form over function for example--but the thing to realize is that getting the cooperation you want from people--be they teachers, bosses, parents, or panhandling targets--requires you to meet those *admittedly silly* standards. Realizing that it *serves your purposes* to comply with seemingly "wasteful" activities can get you a long way *really* fast!

 

Unrealized potential,

Buffy

[IDMclean]

I understand that. I thank you for the advice none-the-less because repetition is good for learning things.

 

I am in the midsts of generating a long term schedule actually which was prompted by my (withdrawn) class Intro to Engineering. Recently I have been struggling with the choice of "to get a degree" or "to not get a degree". That is thine question. I want an education, and the resources that gives me access to. I don't mind going through most of the hoops, so long as they serve my purpose. My purpose so happens to take me across a wide variety of topics, not suited for degree material at a community college. I have also then been struggling with if I am going to get a degree, which one would serve to broaden my scope of knowledge? I go for berth of knowledge rather than depth, because my experience with school is that it is shallow when it comes to the subjects studied. That is it can't provide the depth of subjects that I am looking to study.

 

School for me is a tool in my box. I don't serve the tool, it serves me. If it doesn't then I seek out another tool, one which works better to serve my purpose.

 

Of all the classes I looked at, I have realized I have consistently gone for the wrong ones. My mom told me as advice when I started attending College "Take things you know little about." that is "play to your weaknesses". I took Computer science classes, mathematics, sciences, and other realms of comfort and I realize what I should be taking is Art, Business, Philosophy, Sociology, Psychology, and similar things that I know little of in a formal capacity.

 

Recently I have been looking at starting a Game Development business, and in my research I have learned more in this past few months than I have in the past few years out at college studying for what I thought might be my degree.

 

The Engineers out at the Community college look at the Liberal Arts people in a derisive sort of way, because they lack "rigor" and pre-requisites. I was fascanated to find out that though engineers have a high starting pay, LA holders have a higher life time pay. CEOs tend to be LA majors.

 

Now I understand people have standards, that is implicit in me having my own standards. However I also realize that most people (I am included in the set of people) don't know what they are looking for, for the most part, in life. The issue arises out of the unknown-unknowns. You can't know what you are missing if you didn't have it in the first place to lose it.

 

So yes, I understand that I might not get money if I don't live up to existing standards of begging, but I also understand that even the standards of begging can be improved. I intend to pioneer a form of reputable begging. I am going to ask for community assistence. Now if it doesn't pay out, that's fine. The objective is to find out whether or not my local society is ready for even light socialism :bouquet:. Not to turn profit.

 

I have my integrity, and I don't comprimise it without good reason. It makes life hard when one has principles in a mostly shifting principle atmosphere, but I know that if I hold to them I will thrive in the long run.

 

I don't take short cuts, that's one of my points of major contention. I am in this life for the long haul, and sure I can take short cuts and sometimes they pay off really well. To take a quote from a movie:

Do you know that the harder thing to do and the right thing to do are usually the same thing? Nothing that has meaning is easy. "Easy" doesn't enter into grown-up life.

 

Much my philosophy of the journey.

 

This is all part and parcel of the presentation, marketing and selling of me as an individual.

[pgrmdave]

Even socialism is a two-way street. What are you going to provide people for their support of you? In socialism, you take care of your neighbor because your neighbor takes care of you. Beggers don't offer anything for their money, and should, hopefully, only need enough money to get to a point in their lives where they can support themselves somehow.

[IDMclean]

I am, as I said, selling myself. That is the product that the people are paying to develop. I am a product that produces more resources and products.

 

I am asking people, in this way, to invest in my future, and as I am a child of society, their future also. This is ethical, as if I were in the spot to provide economic support to a reputable cause, I would. Therefore it falls into the realm of reciprocity.

 

It is in the best interest of every citizen to make sure that ever other citizen has the tools, and resources to meet their utmost potential.

 

I have to admit I got this idea from a much older source.

Siddhartha Gautama. I just am looking to improve on the idea of the begging bowl.

[Pyrotex]

I am... just am looking to improve on the idea of the begging bowl.

 

May I offer a word or two of encouragement??

 

Here is a link to a small essay I posted in Hypography some weeks ago. I believe it is germaine to your journey. Let me know what you think.

 

"The deal is the thing."

[IDMclean]

Mood: :D :Happy: :)

 

Nicely written, but I must ask what the intended point is from your side of the fence, because to me it looks allot like my general philosophy, that is nothing new. Perhaps I missed the point beyond "life is a game, play hard, do your best, and come win or lose, smile. That you played and had fun is all that really matters."

 

Looking at the piece quoted, and the essay linked, I might be brought to the idea that the begging bowl can't be improved upon. I am dubious of such an idea.

 

So I am asking for relevancy, and intended interpetation. Don't tell me there was not intent behind that, because that it has been willed so, the statement has intent.

[Pyrotex]

Okay. May I speak freely and honestly? I assume you say 'yes'.

 

You are not a total stranger to me. I have been reading your posts for some time, we've agreed on a few things and we've tangled on a few things. You say you're an E-bum seeking advice, but I really have my doubts on that score. However, I shall speak as if you are seeking advice.

 

That you are seeking success and its rewards I do not question. However, IMHO, you are not seeking success in THIS world. The real, every day, mundane, get up and brush your teeth world that most of us live in. You want success in a world of your imagination, a world that runs by different rules, that has different judgements and expectations, your 'ideal world'. And you are committed to finding success by playing by the rules of your 'ideal world'.

 

I cannot say this won't work, but just speaking from experience and observation, the odds of this approach working for you are very long. How long? :weather_snowing: I would say, vanishingly small.

 

My second opinion (I speak not as authority but from the gut) is much of what you have said, justifying your course of action, sounds an awful lot like setting yourself up with excuses for failure. Things like claiming that your personal projects and leisure and such have much higher priorities than [contempt] the ordinary things that ordinary people have to do to make a living in their ordinary worlds [/contempt]. If you do fail, I would expect the 'other shoe' to fall, something like, 'I would have succeeded if the education/work/justice/social systems hadn't been so sucky'.

 

My third and last opinion is that your very high opinion of yourself (which may in fact be totally justified) has mutated into something dark and self-destructive. I have seen this happen among talented men of my generation, so I know it can happen.

 

Finally, my advice, from a 60-year old geezer, who managed to succeed despite being burdened by being a cripple with only one good arm, and having to be twice as good as most folks around me in order to be judged nearly as good, is this: [reprise from "Rules of Life from the Game of Poker"]

 

There are no easy shortcuts. (except for the insanely gifted and the insanely lucky)

 

There is a good, damn reason why 1000's of young men aren't out on the streets perfecting the begging bowl: IT DOESN'T WORK. If it did, you wouldn't be the only one out there.

 

Okay, so community college is boring. Excuse my french, but, "big f**king deal". With your talent, you should be able to breeze through it. I can see no excuse whatsoever for a man of your intelligence not being able to ACE Intro to Engineering with one eye closed.

 

You are screwing up on purpose. Maybe it's subconciously, I won't debate that. But your commitment is apparently to fail in some glorious manner with a host of glorious excuses.

 

And apparently (I mean, this is the way it looks from my seat) you are looking for justification or permission in this thread to charge out there with your begging bowl, tilt at windmills, and get royally chewed to bloody bits.

 

I like you KAC. I respect a lot of your contributions here. But I won't give you either justification or permission. I will not help you pretend that throwing your life away is noble, glorious, adventurous, daring, courageous or anything other than what it is.

 

You are at the cusp of your own "Darwinian Decision". It's up to you and you alone to demonstrate your fitness to survive and succeed. And the world doesn't give A's for Effort. I oughta know.

[IDMclean]

See edit reason.

[Pyrotex]

[fade screen credits]

[man enters office -- John Cleese is sitting at a desk]

Man: Hello, I'm the man who gave you some advice.

Cleese: No, you aren't.

Man: You don't really want advice, do you?

Cleese: Yes, I do.

Man: But you reason it all away.

Cleese: No, I don't.

Man: You're just trying to find an easy shortcut to life.

Cleese: No, I'm not.

Man: You're not even having a reasonable conversation with me.

Cleese: Yes, I am.

Man: You're just disagreeing with everything I say.

Cleese: No, I'm not.

Man: I came in here to give you some advice.

Cleese: No, you didn't.

Man: I most certainly did! You asked for advice!

Cleese: No, I didn't.

Man: You cheeky poof! The title of this thread says, "seeks advice"

Cleese: No, it doesn't.

...

 

:)

[Celeste]

Sitting here reading these last few posts, I feel like I'm reading a dialogue between my father and my brother from 13 years ago.

 

Pyrotex, you are infinite in wisdom. KAC, you are also infinite in wisdom.

Who is right? Who is wrong? Both or neither, IMHO.

 

My father did everything just as Pyrotex has adviced. Now in his late sixties, he is fairly crippled up due to the work he did, but non-the-less, he is happily content and was very, very, successful in life.

 

On the otherside of the spectrum, my brother could almost be your twin KAC. He was never conventional.

Would not comform to "the man" or the worlds "time" schedule nor did he ever follow the worlds view on the order of things. He like you, also refused to work in the food business, he valued his time to much for that.

Even though he was a high school drop out, he is now in his early thirties, and owns several large companies grossing over 7 figures monthly.

Luck had very little to do with it. It was diligence, perserverance and putting creative idea's to work. He never gave up his dreams, and his dreams became reality, and he obtained it honestly against all 'given' odds and advice.

You can too.

Please don't give up your ways, your dreams or thoughts just yet.

 

As far as your experiment goes, I actually think it may be successful.

Months ago I "donated" much more then normal to a young man with a plight similiar to yours. I watched him for several minutes and was amazed at how many people stopped to donate. Honesty really is the best policy as we all know.

 

"Good luck" would be inappropriate, so I'll just wish you "Good fortune".

[Pyrotex]

..."Good luck" would be inappropriate, so I'll just wish you "Good fortune".

Celeste! Good to see you again. And well, said! I agree.

 

KAC, Good fortune!

/Pyro

[Turtle]

So, yes, Pyro. I do seek advice in so far as I ask for it. I thank you for the unsolicitated advice,...

 

 

This is a sterling example of why your posts have so little merit. You in fact did solicit advice. :)

[Pyrotex]

This is a sterling example of why your posts have so little merit. You in fact did solicit advice. :)

You see?

No helping hand goes unbitten.

No good deed goes unpunished.

No great truth goes unscorned.

[Buffy]

Case and point, the Five Dollar chickity mentioned at the start of this thread by our resident righteous hand of 2X4 justice.

You're welcome! :hihi:

I have asked for advice on how to be a bum and a sociologist. Not on how to live and plan my life. So though I appreciate the words of wisdom, they remain unsolicited, at least not explicitly here anyway.

Be a little careful though: part of what has been imparted here--maybe in a bit, uh, of an overly forceful manner--is that some of the pitfalls that you have encountered in "mainstream" life may bite you as a panhandler. If you read Celeste's post above, between the lines is the notion that you still have to apply your strengths through supreme effort--which is greater when you erect additional barriers due to your desire to do things right (not a bad thing)--and some of us have seen indications that some of your driving force is in not seeing the *value* of certain modes of human interaction. That's not as irrelevant as you might imagine even within the limits you've defined as your subject matter for this thread.

 

I agree with Celeste: success can be good fortune, but most of it is doing the right thing well. Corollary: be careful not to be your own worst enemy!

 

Maggie says that many say,

Buffy