Do you Use or Buy SAP?

[Buffy]

Your mistake was useful Craig! So I'll take advantage of it! This thread will probably die soon anyway, so a slight detour is not going to hurt...

If you mean SAP as in ASP as in Application Service Provider, I would say no.

My company is an ASP, but we sell the thing too. The main benefit of the ASP model is cutting out the IT department, which is good for both large and small organizations: large ones where IT is an obstacle to user orgs who just want their apps quickly, and small ones who can't afford the overhead of a full-time sysadmin. If you use a shared application at all, you'd probably be wise to at least consider an ASP solution, and like us, most companies offer it as an option.

My impression (which very well could be very wrong) is that most of the IT people at hypography are more technical than senior managerial...

That was partly the reason to put up the poll! I wanted to tease any CIOs out of the wood work! If yer out there, admit it! :eek2:

I think ASPs get business mostly through increased regulation

Sarbanes-Oxley is biting a lot of people in the rear end. You should note though that this does not require an ASP-hosted set up: we and lots of other companies are handling rapidly changing compliance through regular updates that work just like the anti-virus packages.

.... a company with an IT department hires a CIO who was formerly (or even remains) an officer of a service provider, who decides it should partner with his former company; It is done; It is revealed; CIO resigns in (heavily disguised) disgrace, takes job at another vendor; repeat ad-infinitum.

It amazes me what some companies will do, but usually this sort of stunt is pulled with full recognition of an exec team who in essence has already decided to simply blow up the entire IT department in a fit of creative destruction. In many cases these are completely disfunctional IT groups, so the strategy actually works. Hiring without resigning is a no-no, and exec teams and individuals who are stupid enough to do this get what they deserve....

On the other hand, maybe they’re related. Maybe not. Very confused. :naughty:

...and here we come full circle: SAP is indeed trying to ramp up ASP services, following the success of both Salesforce.com as well as third parties who simply host and maintain SAP installations... Its the wave of the future, but inspite of my snarky attitude toward IT, IT is not going away anytime soon since there really are cost advantages to doing stuff in house if you're big enough...

 

Round and round and round we spin, :eek:

Buffy

[InfiniteNow]

I've been reading and hearing very often that the current SOX regulations will be relaxed a bit. That should make those bitten hind quarters a bit less tender... Should be interesting to see the actual impact of their adjustments.

[Turtle]

I'm a fish out o' water here, but I just saw an advert for SAP on the SciFi channel. Is this what you are all talking about? It was suitably vague in the commercial as to what it is.

[TheBigDog]

I have been doing ERP implementations since 1997. We use QAD's MFGPro on a Progress DB. We are probably big enough to benefit from SAP, but the implementation cost is *SIGNIFICANTLY* higher. The features in the second tier ERP systems are quickly closing the gap on the big boys. The fact that SAP is marketing toward smaller companies makes sense, they don't have much to gain in the big market where they already have overwhelming dominance. If they don't get into the smaller growing companies they will see their market share erode as the growing companies mature.

 

There are many excellent alternatives to SAP, and all of them are less expensive. And with the modern standards that are being used in the industry it doesn't even matter what you are based on anymore when it comes to linking to customers and vendors. SOA is a godsend when implemented correctly.

 

Bill

[InfiniteNow]

I just saw an advert for SAP on the SciFi channel. Is this what you are all talking about?

That would be the one. I saw the same commercial, and I speculate it's vagueness (vagosity???) is intentional.

 

Air Commercial. Viewer = "What is that?" Launch URL for site. --> Greater public awareness.

 

SAP - From Walldorf to Wall Street: The SAP Success Story

As the world's third-largest independent software provider, SAP delivers business solutions to more than 36,200 customers in more than 120 countries around the world.

 

Founded in 1972 as Systems Applications and Products in Data Processing, SAP is the recognized leader in providing collaborative business solutions for all types of industries and for every major market.

[Turtle]

That would be the one. I saw the same commercial, and I speculate it's vagueness (vagosity???) is intentional.

 

Air Commercial. Viewer = "What is that?" Launch URL for site. --> Greater public awareness.

 

 

Ahhh...well, there's the problem. :evil: Viewer = turtle >>> link on a commercial -->> "There's an invitation to spam." -->> Does not launch SAP or any advertising link. -->> ;)

[InfiniteNow]

How do they get away with charging so much for a training class? SAP Education is big business all on it's own, and demand must be very high for their services if the cost is so high.

 

I mean, are their teachers really THAT good that a single student registration in a 4 day class averages $3,000? Good grief.

[Buffy]

I mean, are their teachers really THAT good that a single student registration in a 4 day class averages $3,000? Good grief.

That is silly. Usually you'll get a nice binder that probably cost about $100 to manufacture in small quantities (and they do), but I think they do this because they *can*. Normally these are group classes and a company is only sending 2-3 people to it at a time, so its under someone minor's signing authority, and "training" is always a slush fund in any department's budget.

 

In the case of my own company, we charge $1000-$2000/day for onsite training (plus expenses) for a whole classroom of people, and normally this would be for 3-4 days and includes custom curriculum and consulting, and I think that's probably the industry average. We're not large enough to have "shared" classes, but I normally see prices for these around $1000/person/class.

 

What the market will bear,

Buffy

[InfiniteNow]

It is nuts. Then you get the business units who want to send all of the IT people they know to each and every class "just in case" back-up support is needed "someday" on one of these systems. Last summer, I actually knew one single employee/student who went to trainings which, after the fact, added up to almost $40K. Then, I ran into him last week at a conference only to find out that he'd left the company to work with a friend. :eek_big:

 

Well, ladies and gentlemen, I'd venture to guess that Oracle has been dethrowned.

 

 

My question is more... How has SAP become the giant they have? Clearly, many of their products are quite good. However, are there no others? Where's the competition? Are they too small to cater to the corporate behemoth? Is it just marketing and connections?

 

Do SAP program managers have dirty pictures of all the main CEOs with rubber balls in their mouths and hairy men with whips spanking them?

 

I'm clearly in the wrong business with my 90 hour weeks and 20 hour pay... :confused:

[Buffy]

My question is more... How has SAP become the giant they have? Clearly, many of their products are quite good. However, are there no others? Where's the competition? Are they too small to cater to the corporate behemoth? Is it just marketing and connections?

Very much the same way Oracle did: its not necessary to have the best products, just ruthless sales and strategy.

 

In the earliest days of Oracle, Larry had one rule for the sales force: "If you run into a problem with a techie, take his boss to lunch." Works like a charm.

 

As for the competition: run them into the ground and then buy them if you need to.

 

SAP did this in Europe at the same time that Oracle was doing this in the US, but they started much earlier and grew much bigger. The US F500's resistance to "buying European" let Oracle catch up in many ways, but SAPs products (we're talking applications, not database) have been better than what Oracle has had for the most part, so its ended up a Mexican Standoff.

 

So,

Do SAP program managers have dirty pictures of all the main CEOs with rubber balls in their mouths and hairy men with whips spanking them?

...was certainly the case in the old days, but now its more, devil you know versus the devil you don't keeps anyone from moving from wherever they are.

 

I'm clearly in the wrong business with my 90 hour weeks and 20 hour pay... :confused:

You need a vacation and to quit the corporate rat race like I did 10 years ago...

 

Startup adrenaline junkie,

Buffy

[InfiniteNow]

Very much the same way Oracle did: its not necessary to have the best products, just ruthless sales and strategy.

Blitzkreig. Slash and burn. Seek and destroy. Then, pretend they're helping you. :eek2:

 

In the earliest days of Oracle, Larry had one rule for the sales force: "If you run into a problem with a techie, take his boss to lunch." Works like a charm.

I suppose there is hope. I've done this myself, and without the orientation to someone's rules. :confused:

 

You need a vacation and to quit the corporate rat race like I did 10 years ago...

I'm still too green. I recognize that currently I make a better #2 than #1. However, if a *friend* were to ask me to help them at *their* company, I would most definitely consider it. :eek_big:

 

 

Skipping the middle man. :shrug:

[Guest chendoh]

Nope. Heard of it. ;)

Neither have I.

Could someone describe it in layman's terms?

[Buffy]

Neither have I.

Could someone describe it in layman's terms?

SAP is one of the world's largest purveyors of software to run large corporations, automating the accounting, financials, manufacturing, human resources, sales and support functions. One system controls everything and theoretically provides information that can be shared across all these functions to make the company more efficient. Comes under the buzz-TLA of ERP for Enterprise Resource Planning that encompasses many other TLAs like MRP, SCM, HR (okay, a pseudo-TLA), SFA, CRM, etc.

 

They were founded in Germany back in the Mainframe days, and their primary competition is Oracle. Both companies spend most of their time on selling to really big companies but due to Microsoft buying some low-end competition in this space like Great Plains, they're trying to move down into the SMB (yaTLA: Small-Medium Business) segment. Traditionally, these systems need to be heavily customized to match what a business does, so they come with armies of "consultants" and "training" meaning that most of the money spent is actually *not* for the software.

 

Add that to your endless fund of useless information,

Buffy

[jungjedi]

ive only heard of wap,sap, and fap which have to do with the anthropic principle

[Guest chendoh]

SAP is one of the world's largest purveyors of software to run large corporations, automating the accounting, financials, manufacturing, human resources, sales and support functions. One system controls everything and theoretically provides information that can be shared across all these functions to make the company more efficient. Comes under the buzz-TLA of ERP for Enterprise Resource Planning that encompasses many other TLAs like MRP, SCM, HR (okay, a pseudo-TLA), SFA, CRM, etc.

 

They were founded in Germany back in the Mainframe days, and their primary competition is Oracle. Both companies spend most of their time on selling to really big companies but due to Microsoft buying some low-end competition in this space like Great Plains, they're trying to move down into the SMB (yaTLA: Small-Medium Business) segment.

Traditionally, these systems need to be heavily customized to match what a business does, so they come with armies of "consultants" and "training" meaning that most of the money spent is actually *not* for the software.

 

Add that to your endless fund of useless information,

Buffy

From what I've read in the thread, so far, including your kind response.......

 

My take on the situation is, theoretically it 'sounds' like a good idea, but except for the model it was based on years ago, its difficult to intergrate into the newer systems of today's business climate.

 

My nested quote is in reference to SAP's acronym. How fitting!..:)

[InfiniteNow]

My take on the situation is, theoretically it 'sounds' like a good idea, but except for the model it was based on years ago, its difficult to intergrate into the newer systems of today's business climate.

 

That's just it though. It's not so much about integrating with legacy systems, but replacing them. If the business has it's own process and home grown tools, that's (as Buffy mentioned) where the customizations, consulting, and training landslide begins.

 

 

WHAT!?! You now have version 7.0 available? But we just finished implementing 3.5!! :)

 

 

Be sure to check out this thread (and more specifically, the linked content) posted last night by Monomer:

 

http://hypography.com/forums/watercooler/11817-redisorganization-theories.html