Socialism vs capitalism

[Michaelangelica]

Capitalism abit battered of late?

UK Nationalises banks

http://news.theage.com.au/world/britain-nationalises-second-bank-as-turmoil-deepens-2008092

and others

Dutch government nationalises Fortis

Dutch government nationalises Fortis - Radio Netherlands Worldwide - English

Iceland nationalises bank and seeks Russian loan

Financial crisis: Iceland nationalises bank and seeks Russian loan - Telegraph

US 'nationalises' mortgage lenders

US 'nationalises' mortgage lenders - World News - World - General - Farm Weekly

 

India has already nationlised many of its banks. I wonder hoe it is weathering this storm?

Tuesday, October 07, 2008 (13:48:53)

Tags : UN, Finacial crisis, Nirupam Sen, Ban Ki Moon

India criticises UN over financial crisis

New York: India has sharply criticised the United Nations and its affiliated organisations for sitting on the sidelines as the current financial crisis unfolded, saying that the IMF remained helpless despite the economic meltdown impacting adversely on the developing nations.

India called on the world body to use its universality to coordinate an international response, which is crucial to overcoming the crisis.

During a discussion on the annual report of UN chief Ban Ki-moon, Indian Ambassador Nirupam Sen attacked the Secretariat for ignoring the economic crisis that is now "crushing" the poor around the globe and for lacking any vision for the future or how the organisation could help developing countries deal with the serious looming challenges.

 

While the world had not ended, the world of Wall Street had certainly ended, and the "Masters of the Universe had bitten the dust, the same dust that is now in the mouths of the rest of us," Sen said, adding that the free market, like free love, had come to an end. He branded the report, which gives snapshot of UN work in development, human rights and other areas and its vision for future, as "inadequate if not irrelevant".

 

Sen told delegations gathered for the Assembly's annual review that the document should have spelled out how the UN could rebuild the global political and economic institutions.

The report, he said, also remained silent on intellectual property rights and how the organisation could stimulate the stalled Doha Round of talks being held under the auspices of the World Trade Organisation, another institution "approaching irrelevance." (PTI)

India criticises UN over financial crisis

Monday, September 29, 2008

European banking collapse including nationalisation of three banks

European banking collapse including nationalisation of three banks

Wall Street socialism: privatising profits, nationalising losses

An Phoblacht: Wall Street socialism: privatising profits, nationalising losses

The Banking Crisis

-

 

Who has done what

 

Ireland

 

Ireland has given a blanket guarantee -

 

US

 

The Bush administration's $700 billion bailout package, -

 

Iceland

 

The government is reportedly negotiating a €10 billion-

 

UK

 

The UK government has followed last year's nationalisation of Northern Rock by taking over Bradford and Bingley's -

France

 

Last week French authorities contributed €1 billion. . . or even nationalise failing banks.

 

Spain

 

 

 

Belgium

 

The government led rescue of Fortis, Belgium's biggest financial services firm, failed

 

Luxembourg

 

Luxembourg joined with Belgium and the Netherlands in a

 

Italy

 

Prime minister Silvio Berlusconi has promised

 

Switzerland

 

The Swiss government has maintained

 

Austria

 

On Sunday finance

 

Greece

 

Greece was one of the first E

Germany

 

Government has provided an unlimited

 

Netherlands

 

The Dutch

 

Denmark

 

 

 

© 2008 The Irish Times

The Banking Crisis - The Irish Times - Tue, Oct 07, 2008

[questor]

Are we to understand that capitalism is the cause of the world financial meltdown, or is it the abuse of entrepreneurial spirit by greedy criminals? If we are to think that capitalism should be junked because of fraudulent activity, then nearly every endeavor by man should be junked. Aren't some religious leaders con men? What about politicians, wasn't Clinton a con man?

What about philanthropic organizations, aren't their CEO's frequently caught with their hands in the till? What about the US government? Is there any larger evidence of graft and corruption in the world? Capitalism brought us the possibility of wealth and prosperity to every citizen. Which other system of economics has done the same for it's citizens?

[pgrmdave]

On what grounds should capitalism and socialism be compared? At their worst, they are both terrible, at their best, they are both good. I suppose part of the question can be framed like this:

 

Would you rather live in a society where everybody has to struggle to feed their family, or one in which some people simply cannot?

[Pyrotex]

Life is a stool wth three legs: Authority, responsibility, and liability. You must have all three or it topples. Any system that wields authority with diminished responsibility or liabilty will be abusive. Any fool who touches a hot stove and expects not to be burned or to be compensated for his stupidity deserves to maximally suffer - or he will do it again. Think of it as evolution in action.

....

Uncle Al,

are you sure you aren't the reincarnation of Robert A. Heinlein?

 

I mean that as a complement.

[questor]

Dave:

Would you rather live in a society where everybody has to struggle to feed their family, or one in which some people simply cannot?

Dave, could you give me some statistics on how many American families are starving under capitalism? It would seem to me that the lowest of our citizens lives a much better life than half the population of the world. That is why we have so much immigration.

Would you prefer to have the occasional robbery of your income by a greedy thief, or would you prefer to lose it in every paycheck to the US Government?

Would you rather control your own life, income and future, or would you prefer the government handle the job for you? The bottom line is, are you willing to take the risk and responsibility, and possible rewards for your own life and efforts, or do you think the government will do a better job?

[Michaelangelica]

US debt clock runs out of digits

 

Posted 2 hours 14 minutes ago

 

A clock in New York showing America's national debt has run out of digits.

 

The National Debt Clock was designed to show figures of up to 10 trillion U-S dollars.

 

When the figure rose above that amount at the end of last month the clock failed to cope.

 

As a short-term fix, the dollar sign on the digital display has been changed to a number, so the full figure of about ten-point-two-trillion dollars can be displayed.

 

- BBC

US debt clock runs out of digits - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

 

[pgrmdave]

Dave:

Dave, could you give me some statistics on how many American families are starving under capitalism? It would seem to me that the lowest of our citizens lives a much better life than half the population of the world. That is why we have so much immigration.

 

I agree, the vast majority of people are much better off here than elsewhere. But one person starving, or one person freezing to death is too much, in my opinion. It is not enough to be 'the best', we must strive for perfection. In my world, there is no such thing as an acceptable casualty rate.

[Michaelangelica]

The worst poverty I have seen in a western country was in the USA

Also the richest people.

[questor]

Were the poor people living in the US worse off than the Abbos? Where was this place?

[Michaelangelica]

Were the poor people living in the US worse off than the Abbos?

Yes Aboriginal people don't have to rob, sell their bodies, sell drugs to get enough money to survive. It is possible to maintain personal pride and dignity.

Where was this place?

NY NY in the back-streets and in and around Brooklyn 20 years ago

I had never seen so much wreath as in Houston Texas. No poor, as there was no dole

NY City had 6 months dole so many were moving there to survive.

 

There is a lot of poor in UK urban areas- here again it seemed possible to maintain personal pride and dignity and usually get some shelter, and even a social beer at the pub. Much more sense of community, rather than dog-eat-dog as in the States.

[questor]

Michael, you are constantly denigrating the US. What your motives are I can't guess. It is a sad commentary on the Americans on this site who see no need to inform you of the truth and offer a defense of their own country. I wonder if they see it as patrotic to let all your comments go unanswered?

Let's take a look at the truth:

Tiny Aboriginal Children

We drove around the circumference of Uluru, looking at the caves where the rock touches the desert. On the way out we stopped at the Ranger's Office/Kiosk/Shop. Baby Karl was immediately surrounded by happy totally-naked Aboriginal children. They were just as tall as he was, but they were far more mature in their looks, and more skilled in their movements, and they could speak really well.

 

Suddenly our reality shifted and we saw little Karl Jr. in a new light - he had much less co-ordination, dexterity and balancing skills than the Aboriginal kids of his size. We watched them for a few moments before suddenly we remembered that he was a normal 1.5 year old child - and then we could also see that the Aboriginal kids were all around 4 years old, but short. The reason they were his height was because they had suffered from severe malnutrition and infectious diseases during their short 4 years of life.

 

(article continues at following link)

 

Link: Tiny Aboriginal Children

 

It looks to me that the abbo's have a pretty tough life. Do they have city housing, insurance, telephones , TV, indoor plumbing, bus service, free education ?

 

You have a total lack of understanding about the States, I guess because of your quick visit to the areas of the least fortunate.

 

You made ths appalling statement:

Yes Aboriginal people don't have to rob, sell their bodies, sell drugs to get enough money to survive. It is possible to maintain personal pride and dignity.

 

Where did you get the idea that Americans HAVE to do any of this. Nobody HAS to indulge in this behavior, they CHOOSE to behave this way. There is not one of these people who were forced to live this type life.

 

This shows a total lack of understanding:

NY NY in the back-streets and in and around Brooklyn 20 years ago

I had never seen so much wreath as in Houston Texas. No poor, as there was no dole

NY City had 6 months dole so many were moving there to survive.

Houston has a lot of poor on welfare. It is our third largest city and is full of Illegals and the ''unfortunate''. Why do you think people flock to the big cities?

Could it be that they have all the fun things to do, plus a free check from the government? It's not a matter of survival, it's a matter of government freebies with no responsibility to do anything in return. If you are going to continue to attack everthing about America, why don't you get your facts straight? We can handle the truth. Try to talk to a conservative once in awhile so you can hear the other side.

[REASON]

Michael, you are constantly denigrating the US. What your motives are I can't guess. It is a sad commentary on the Americans on this site who see no need to inform you of the truth and offer a defense of their own country. I wonder if they see it as patrotic to let all your comments go unanswered?

 

;)

 

 

Houston has a lot of poor on welfare. It is our third largest city and is full of Illegals and the ''unfortunate''. Why do you think people flock to the big cities?

Could it be that they have all the fun things to do, plus a free check from the government? It's not a matter of survival, it's a matter of government freebies with no responsibility to do anything in return. If you are going to continue to attack everthing about America, why don't you get your facts straight? We can handle the truth. Try to talk to a conservative once in awhile so you can hear the other side.

 

Yeah, I'm sure you're a real expert on poverty in the United States, questor. :)

 

Didn't you tell me that where you're from $300,000 represents low income housing?

 

You apparently don't recognize that your comments on this subject, like the one's above, make you look ignorant and foolish. If your attitude is typical of conservatives, it's no wonder nobody's comming to you for advise on the subject. As Obama says, you just "don't get it." Maybe it would do you some good to do some volunteer work at a soup kitchen or something. Then you tell all those folks to their face how lazy and pathetic they are. :)

[questor]

Reason, you don't surprise me with your attitude. This is where people like Michael get their information. You said:

Didn't you tell me that where you're from $300,000 represents low income housing?

 

You apparently don't recognize that your comments on this subject, like the one's above, make you look ignorant and foolish. If your attitude is typical of conservatives, it's no wonder nobody's comming to you for advise on the subject. As Obama says, you just "don't get it." Maybe it would do you some good to do some volunteer work at a soup kitchen or something. Then you tell all those folks to their face how lazy and pathetic they are.

 

Let's see if you want to back up your position with some real information instead of insults.

Go to - Realtor.com. - go to Washington, DC - go to price , put in $300,000. put in 3 bedroom, 1 1/2 baths - click on search. Take a look at what comes up and tell me where it is. Maybe then you can refrain from these constant uninformed attacks.

[jackson33]

I agree, the vast majority of people are much better off here than elsewhere. But one person starving, or one person freezing to death is too much, in my opinion. It is not enough to be 'the best', we must strive for perfection. In my world, there is no such thing as an acceptable casualty rate.

 

Then sir, your not living in the REAL world. People die daily in this country daily for reasons of their own ignorance, stupidity or the lack of professional assistance and there possible means for society or government to prevent.

 

If you join the local Police Force, Fire Department, US Military or in fact drive a truck or live in Detroit or Washington DC, you have a statistical probability of early death. If your into Mountain Climbing, auto racing or a number of practiced hobby or professions, you have the statistical probability of early death. If you haven't planned for OLD AGE reaching this age, you have a statistical probably of early death. If you live in certain areas of the country, where earth quakes, fires, floods, tornado's or hurricanes periodically happen and you don't pay attention you may not die early but your certainly going to pay some price and if you don't go to school, don't play by the rules or play into this notion "government" will rescue you, your going to pay the price.

 

We just don't all live in some utopia, where things are less likely to go wrong and if your getting my point, those that choose otherwise should not be obligated/liable or responsible.

 

Reason; There are a good many subdivisions in this country, where the lowest price homes are (maybe were) valued at 300k. Green Valley, Arizona comes to mind, a retirement community...but in Las Vargas and in the Los Angeles area there are areas where a million dollar home is for the wanna bees in their midst. Comparative housing works both ways...

 

 

On this notion, that every person somehow even desires to be well off, live to 60 or even learn anything slightly complicated is absurd. To begin with, the very notion of Social Welfare, predictable makes people subservient to their donor, usually government. Do you honestly think the majority of democratic voters choose the liberal platform or that they oppose the other choice where personal responsibility is the expected.

 

While I am on a rant, is there not some one reading this thread that has ever hired people. I have and assume Buffy has and a few others. At one point I even tried to hire people standing on corners looking for hand outs, or walking around collecting cans. I won't go into the stories and you wouldn't believe them anyway...but people are just not consistent or even what you might think they are. Think I read some place a homeless person (think SF) died and they found 200k in his shelter mattress.

[Zythryn]

Jackson and Questor, yes there are examples of people that COULD help themselves given the willpower to do so. But this does not mean that EVERYONE can.

The number of people forced into bankruptcy just because of medical bills. No fault of their own, just happens that s%$! happens.

Jackson, do you think the homeless person who was found to have 200k is typical? Or do you think that is an exception to the norm?

[questor]

Z, we don't live in a perfect world--never have, never will. It would seem to me that if I want to make a difference I have several choices. Join the Peace Corps, be a community activist for shelters, food, etc., take homeless people into my home and care for them, or give all the money I can to charity. If I feel strongly enough about it, I must participate personally rather than wait for others to do it. If I am not willing to do it myself, why should I expect others to do it for me? Another way to help is make a lot of money like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet. After you have made your billions, you can really be helpful. You don't see much philanthropy coming from the middle class or below, they are too busy trying to pay their own bills.

One anecdote about the homeless here in DC. In the dead of winter, on a snowy night, a TV reporter goes up to a large box sitting on a steaming metro grate. A figure rises up out of the box. A homeless man. The reporter puts the mike out and asks the man why is he out in the freezing weather when he could be in one of the shelters? He says; '' I don't want to be in no shelter, there too many bums and crooks in there.''

[Donk]

From www.crikey.com.au:

14 . Never mind the markets, capitalism has a crisis of faith

Canberra correspondent Bernard Keane writes:

 

The Church of England came up with a prayer for the financial crisis back in September. You’d imagine most City bankers wouldn’t be practising Anglicans, but, equally, I bet a lot have found God in the last few days.

 

A prayer is laughable. As if any self-respecting deity is going to respond to any prayer about a financial crisis with anything other than a derisive chortle. What sort of god do you people believe in anyway, to think he, she or it would play the markets?

 

But then again ... capitalism does stand exposed as a matter of faith at this point.

 

And I don’t mean that in that trite way when reactionaries say "climate change is a religious belief", delighting in the chance to finally throw back in the faces of those liberal secularists all their mockery of religion -- all those smart-alec lefties with their fornication and their drugs and their atheistical ways -- well who’s clever now, eh, with your world supposedly ending under rising oceans, hmmm?

 

Nor, yet, in that witless First Year essay way of slogging through Weber and Durkheim and your Das Kapital crib to do the "Marxism fulfils the basic requirements of a religion: discuss" topic worth 50% of the course mark. Except these days it wouldn’t be Marxism but something more fashionable like "Celebrity".

 

Nor even in the way that the sacerdotal class of capitalism -- investment bankers -- have inflicted the same sort of damage on the brand as paedo priests have on Catholicism.

 

No, capitalism’s faith-like aspect is so strong now because like any decent, self-respecting, god-fearing religion, its attempt to coherently explain how the operations of the universe work just fine when everything’s going well, but fall apart the moment things turn to sh-t.

 

Because isn’t that part of the appeal of capitalism? It explains the world in a manner that sounds just and reasonable. It works the way we’d like the universe to work. Hard work, initiative, get-up-and-go, a willingness to take risks, all get rewarded. Sitting on your backside doing nothing, or being reckless, doesn’t.

 

Except, if we didn’t know it before, we sure as hell know it now -- it’s a lie. The biggest rewards -- the trillion dollar rewards -- go to those who screw up, who deliberately act foolishly, who take absurd risks, or entirely abrogate their responsibilities for the sake of making a buck.

 

If you owe the bank a million dollars, you’ve got a problem, the old saw goes, but if you owe the bank a billion dollars, it has a problem. We never knew there was another extension to that, viz: if the bank owes anyone a billion dollars, it’s our problem.

 

We all knew beforehand that the "market" isn’t especially fair. If it was fair, footballers whose sole contribution to the world is degrading women and thanking their sponsors wouldn’t be paid 20 times average earnings. If it was fair, carers would be paid 10 times what lawyers earn. If it was fair, I’d be rich beyond the dreams of avarice and everyone who has ever annoyed me would be a pauper.

 

But the bailouts and bank protection on offer now dwarf all that. They’re the ultimate demonstration that capitalism doesn’t have much to do with fairness and appropriate reward.

 

There’s another way in which capitalism is like faith. I made mock before of praying about the crisis. On second thoughts, perhaps that’s not such a bad idea, even for those of us untroubled by delusions of anything beyond this vale of tears. Only a collective act of will, it seems, will restore the operation of the equity and credit markets. The trillion dollar packages haven’t worked, or the bank guarantees, but a suspension of disbelief might, an act of faith that the system can work again, a willingness to pretend once more that hard work and enterprise will be rewarded, that wealth isn’t arbitrarily doled out by luck or, worse yet, goes to those least deserving.

 

There are, to stretch an already overworked metaphor to breaking point, plenty of wounds in which the doubting capitalist can stick their money. But at the moment we all -- well, all of us who prefer living in a civilized, well-functioning society -- need to close our eyes and believe again.

 

Scary huh?