Socialism vs capitalism

[jackson33]

It is true that in order to effectively restrict something, you must track it.

However, I track my golf score, does that mean I am restricting it?

We track the level of co2 in the air, we certainly are not restricting it.

You most likely track your bank account balance, you aren't restricting it, are you?

 

 

This means your records are already tracked at some level. Are you against that level of tracking as well?

If you get rescued from an accident, out of state, would it be easy/fast for medical personel to retrieve your records? Would a more efficient system be benificial.

 

 

 

If you have insurance. When was the last time you paid for a physical exam without insurance? I am willing to bet the average cost of one is at least $200.

Did you see the 60 minutes this summer that did a story on the organization of doctors that would go from place to place in the world to offer multi-day free clinics for the poor?

They opened a 3(?) day clinic in the South East (Tennessee or Georgia I think). The stories of people unable to afford basic care was amazing. I'll see if I can find it for you, scary stuff.

 

Here it is: U.S. Health Care Gets Boost From Charity, "60 Minutes": Remote Area Medical Finds It's Needed In America To Plug Health Insurance Gap - CBS News

The organization is Remote Area Medical. Story was shown in March and updated in July.

 

Since you bothered to find your site, I read it. Would like to know how many in total did get seen, to make a point. As for the individual stories, think the responses pretty much say it all..."nothing makes sense"...

 

I track the markets and most certainly do restrict by picks based on those tracks. But that's me tracking an entity, not government or some system tracking me, to determine my qualifications for service. I would agree tracking an individual could make a difference in the actual care, making diagnosis much less complicated. On CO2 tracking, yes and you may have no idea how much its already cost you...And yes, I most certainly do make decisions based on tracking my bank account...

 

Most medical facilities/doctor offices are already connected to special software, where your records can be retrieved. If your out of State accident involved medical attention its on that (restricted) software. Might add your accident is also public record and on open free access, just as every post you make under your user name, is on the web...

 

Cost to medical exams for determining a specific problem can be expensive. This you can give credit to the legal system and liability suits when major problems were undetected. You know all the stories about some person dieing the day after an exam...99% of office calls probably result from some pre conceived notion of a problem. The basic check up, which I was required to take every two years, was a matter of a few question, blood pressure check, urine/blood test. Took 10 minutes...and 35.00 (2002).

 

The best end result of socialized medicine was demonstrated by Castro a few years ago, when on two or three occasions, he had a special team flown in from Spain to attend him, yet professed the best health care system on the planet. As to the American system, well people still come here from around the world for service.

[jackson33]

Dave; I understand where your coming from, obviously can't disagree and wished everyone could have what all I have had in my years. However all 6.6 Billion of us don't live in the US or any industrialized/capitalistic society/ country. Socializing the US will not solve world problems and IMO letting Capitalism progress will cure many of the ills in the future.

[pgrmdave]

I agree, the majority of those poor don't live in the US, or in any industrialized nation. But some do, and I think that is terrible. I think that we need some degree of social welfare. I think it needs to provide all the basics and nothing more. Nobody should ever feel comfortable being on welfare, there should be ample incentive to work. I also think that the government, while providing this basic welfare should also provide 100% employment if you are willing to work doing basic things (cleaning parks, basic construction work, simple bureaucratic tasks) for a wage below market rate but above the basic welfare. That way, people don't die of basic problems (food/water/shelter). People also have incentive to work to improve their lot. People also have guaranteed jobs for the government, where they would be able to earn money, help improve the US, and gain basic job experience.

[questor]

Dave, I don't know where you live, but I will bet you have never seen government in action. It's not a pretty sight.

I also think that the government, while providing this basic welfare should also provide 100% employment if you are willing to work doing basic things (cleaning parks, basic construction work, simple bureaucratic tasks) for a wage below market rate but above the basic welfare.

Do you believe the government owns all the money, and they just let us keep a little of what we earn? Where does the money come from to do the above?

Nobody should ever feel comfortable being on welfare, there should be ample incentive to work.

Dave, there already are incentives to work:

1. Food

2. Shelter

3. Money

Why don't they take advantage of it? As far as I know, people that work get paid..Money. That buys other things.

 

The homeless man in your town that froze..what was he thinking about? Why do you think he didn't go to a church or a government facility to get warm?

Do you think a person should do anything at all to take care of himself?

If so, what should he do?

[Zythryn]

And yes, I most certainly do make decisions based on tracking my bank account...

Now you are just avoiding the point.

Your concern/claim was that the government would be limiting your choices if they tracked your healthcare.

So my question to you is, because you track your bank account does that mean you limit the balance?

Sure, you make choices based on what you see. But you don't restrict yourself.

Unless by restrict you mean 'make choices'. This is a pretty odd definition but if it is one you want to use, then I will agree that tracking leads to 'restrictions'.

 

As for wondering about how many they saw in Knoxville, that information is on page 4 of the article.

For your convenience:

In the expedition to Knoxville, RAM saw 920 patients, made 500 pairs of glasses, did 94 mammograms, extracted 1,066 teeth and did 567 fillings. But when Stan Brock called the last number, 400 people were turned away.

[pgrmdave]

He couldn't go to a church, they are not set up to handle homeless men (I talked about this earlier, and I know personally some people who are trying to rectify this, but it requires a lot of coordination). He couldn't go to the government, there are NO services for the homeless in Sparta, and none for homeless men in Sussex County.

 

The government (and thus, the people whom the government represents) has a responsibility to provide for the basic welfare of the people. I will gladly pay taxes that others may have water and food, but I see clean water as a right not a privilege, and thus it is the government's responsibility to provide it for people.

 

The money for public works projects comes from taxes. Those taxes then pay the salaries of the people working. Those people working then spend that money nearly immediately (poorer people spend a greater percentage of their paychecks, so it makes more sense to provide an immediate boost to the economy by paying them more than by cutting taxes on the rich, which provides a boost to the economy in the future). That increase in spending helps businesses, who are then able to provide more jobs for people. And, it benefits those workers by providing them work experience, making the US workforce more competitive and more desirable.

 

Providing welfare in this manner would lower taxes in the long run, by providing an immediate stop-gap to recessions, much like unemployment benefits help economies by providing immediate relief to the businesses and banks that would otherwise lose revenue when people lose their jobs.

[Zythryn]

Dave, I don't know where you live, but I will bet you have never seen government in action. It's not a pretty sight.

 

While I am not Dave, I have seen government in action. Unlike you I think government in action can be a wonderful sight.

 

I have seen firemen saving lives and property.

I have seen police protecting people.

I have seen the government supplying food and fresh water as well as financial support to tornado and flood victims.

I have seen thousands of young people get a free education.

 

Now, I have also seen the government do some very ugly things (especially in the last 8 years). However, I have seen more good than bad on a local level. To imply anything the government does 'is not a pretty sight.' is, in my opinion, short sighted.

[questor]

I agree with you on the services mentioned. I was referring to the administrative and bureaucratic activities.

[Zythryn]

Well, the administrative and bureaucratic activities that allow the police, fire and education services to work seem to work pretty well.

Sure, there is room for improvement, but the services do work.

[freeztar]

Well, the administrative and bureaucratic activities that allow the police, fire and education services to work seem to work pretty well.

Sure, there is room for improvement, but the services do work.

 

What do you think about privatized fire service? It would be more capitalistic, but would it be as efficient, or perhaps better?

[Kriminal99]

Socialism is the limit capitalism approaches as market failure goes to zero.

 

ie, when secondary education is privatized and market forces find some clever way to train doctors in the same time it takes to train accountants, then the two will be paid the same. If more of one or the other are needed, people will just leave one field for the other until there is no more pay gap.

[Michaelangelica]

Does pure "socialism" or "capitalism" really exist in the real world- or are they just constructs of our own minds?

[jackson33]

I agree, the majority of those poor don't live in the US, or in any industrialized nation. But some do, and I think that is terrible. I think that we need some degree of social welfare. I think it needs to provide all the basics and nothing more. Nobody should ever feel comfortable being on welfare, there should be ample incentive to work. I also think that the government, while providing this basic welfare should also provide 100% employment if you are willing to work doing basic things (cleaning parks, basic construction work, simple bureaucratic tasks) for a wage below market rate but above the basic welfare. That way, people don't die of basic problems (food/water/shelter). People also have incentive to work to improve their lot. People also have guaranteed jobs for the government, where they would be able to earn money, help improve the US, and gain basic job experience.

 

In discussing this issue with you, I have tried to explain most people die from some preventable cause or at least their life was shortened. As for your basics, there is simply no reason to blame government, capitalism or the need for additional socialism. Those items are available and to every one.

 

On relatively cold nights through out this country, cops are charged with getting people off the street (homeless). 32 degrees in Jacksonville Florida or maybe 10 degrees in NYC. Every years hundreds of articles are written on how high the percentages are of people who refuse assistance. Did you know, by law no restaurant/public facility can refuse any person WATER.

 

By far (100/1), more people die from heat than freezing to death. All preventable and the number listed as respiratory failure, might make this a major cause for death. The human body basically can be acclimatized. People living in dry cold places have trouble is humid hot places, especially older folks and so on. Then during the summer, any heat wave lasting over a day or two, can cause hundreds of deaths (Chicago 800, France in the thousands have been recent statistics). One major health problem in Phoenix Az. is dehydration where every emergency room is full during most the summer. Ball parks, sporting events, or any mass gathering of people during an open air daytime event occurs has ambulances on sight to haul off victims of heat stroke, which can happen in minutes. There are probably 50 more such causes for death and as you get older the list grows, ALL PREVENTABLE.

 

 

JOBS??? Public service, or earning welfare has been tried. I have no idea how many law suits created where a mother was doing public service, when her child got hurt or molested or the person him/her self was injured during performance of labor. In NYC (you should remember this) the Unions jumped all over government for allowing non-union labor to do public service, claiming it took work from their members. Aside from this, there are thousands of jobs already available, I don't care where your from and some people just won't work period.

[pgrmdave]

You say there are thousands of jobs already available, and yet unemployment is on the rise. You say that there are preventable deaths, and yet you do not propose any way to prevent them.

 

What I am suggesting would require a major shift in how government functions, and in how we perceive the government - I simply do not think that it is unreasonable that we allocate some money for every town to have a place where homeless people can live. I've heard tales about the law that nobody can refuse water, and yet I've never actually seen it in writing - I'll look and see if I can find it, perhaps you could do the same and post it here if you do?

[pgrmdave]

I agree with you on the services mentioned. I was referring to the administrative and bureaucratic activities.

 

Given that part of my plan would require the government to be able to provide jobs to anybody, it is possible to come across somebody who is simply unfit for physical labor, or who would be more useful in an administrative setting. With the massive increase in government jobs that would occur, we'd need to increase oversight and ensure that strict records were kept, which is where these administrative and bureaucratic jobs would come into play.

[pgrmdave]

Well, so far I've found no information on US tap water laws, but according to the Guardian, in the UK:

The truth is that in Britain there is no legal requirement on restaurants to provide free tap water to customers. Some pubs and other premises permitted to sell alcohol may have a clause in their licence that does require them to offer free tap water, but it's on a localised basis only.

 

Tap water, sir? We don't do it | Money | The Guardian

[jackson33]

You say there are thousands of jobs already available, and yet unemployment is on the rise. You say that there are preventable deaths, and yet you do not propose any way to prevent them.

 

What I am suggesting would require a major shift in how government functions, and in how we perceive the government - I simply do not think that it is unreasonable that we allocate some money for every town to have a place where homeless people can live. I've heard tales about the law that nobody can refuse water, and yet I've never actually seen it in writing - I'll look and see if I can find it, perhaps you could do the same and post it here if you do?

 

On your post 237; That article is for the UK, but even in the UK Pubs are obliged to give free water, on request...

 

Interesting though in checking for US Laws, only Arizona has a State Law for refusing water, then clean drinkable. Happens I did own a business in Arizona.

There are probably several areas where for some reason old laws are still around or that circumstance dictate a need.

 

According to the US Bureau of Labor Services, there were listed 3.3 million jobs in the US (8/30/08). The folks were probably talking about, jobs are rarely listed. Here in NM, small business puts the word out and then can only hire under the table (cash). Seems to much welfare would be lost in taking any job. As for rising unemployment at 6% is considered full employment, even here and today tens of thousands are from NO or Galveston areas where business has literally shut down.

 

Homeless shelters if wanted are local decision. There is always some building vacant and a few people around that would support. In your area there are probably hundreds in NYC, Trenton and many of towns around both. May be a bus ticket program would be cheaper.

 

I gave you one 'preventable' cause for death in the US and feel there may be many more. Auto Accidents probably create more havoc on human stress than anything else, deaths/injury/loss of property and 99.9% are preventable. A great many people die every year in the US from Natural Disasters, even from suicide and certainly preventable. We don't live in cocoons and government should not be charged with individual care.