Socialism vs capitalism

[pgrmdave]

You say that homeless shelters could be a local decision, but the problem is that they don't gain traction. What is needed is strong leadership from up high to dictate the terms. That won't be popular, but without it we are left with an incompatible patchwork system that has failed repeatedly.

 

What does the government do, if not provide for the well-being of its citizens?

[jackson33]

You say that homeless shelters could be a local decision, but the problem is that they don't gain traction. What is needed is strong leadership from up high to dictate the terms. That won't be popular, but without it we are left with an incompatible patchwork system that has failed repeatedly.

 

What does the government do, if not provide for the well-being of its citizens?

 

If where talking the Federal, the main purpose is to address the common interest of the 50 States, under the restrictions of the Constitution. Your talking 'Promote (opposed to provide) the General Welfare.

 

I seriously doubt there are any Homeless Shelters in 30 of the States, certainly none in most rural areas. Jersey, has a dense population, but inside the I-287. Your State and probably every densely populated States would like to keep the homeless in certain areas. You probably FEEL these folks are just down on their luck, but statistics won't bare you out.

 

By the way meant Newark, not Trenton...

 

When a Federal Installation is closed in smaller towns (some larger) they work with local authorities to find jobs, lease the property for business (warehousing common), even moving people to other locations. Beyond this all assistance must and should be equal to all locations and at the same time.

I might add, GWB's Faith Based Initiative Program, which does do this, involves the homeless via a variety of organizations.

 

One more thing; At one time in Kingsville Texas (pop 40k) no shelters and a heavy migrant/Latino family area (low income) we had a real problem with homeless. We also had many church's, none set up to house anyone but they worked with local Motels and/or Apartment Houses for short term housing. I had both and probably housed the majority for several years. You might investigate this, rather than a shelter...

[questor]

Dave, you are very interested in making society responsible for all citizens. Have you ever asked yourself what the citizen that receives help is responsible for? Should he be responsible to not take drugs or get drunk constantly? Should he take care of the free premises where he lives, and not urinate or defecate in the rooms and hallways? What happens when he steals the furnishings and sells them for drug money? What happens when he attacks others? Do you believe that all homeless should be given a free ride with no responsibility to others? The man who froze to death made that choice. He could have found shelter even if it meant crawling under someone's house. Were you responsible for his death or was he? Wasn't he your age at sometime? Didn't he have free choice as you did? Did society do him in or did he do himself in by poor life's choices? If I was going to be a bum, I would pick Miami, Fl., a much warmer area where no one freezes. In order for you to understand more about these folks, why not volunteer for social work?

[Moontanman]

Dave, you are very interested in making society responsible for all citizens. Have you ever asked yourself what the citizen that receives help is responsible for? Should he be responsible to not take drugs or get drunk constantly? Should he take care of the free premises where he lives, and not urinate or defecate in the rooms and hallways? What happens when he steals the furnishings and sells them for drug money? What happens when he attacks others? Do you believe that all homeless should be given a free ride with no responsibility to others? The man who froze to death made that choice. He could have found shelter even if it meant crawling under someone's house. Were you responsible for his death or was he? Wasn't he your age at sometime? Didn't he have free choice as you did? Did society do him in or did he do himself in by poor life's choices? If I was going to be a bum, I would pick Miami, Fl., a much warmer area where no one freezes. In order for you to understand more about these folks, why not volunteer for social work?

 

So Questor you think that anyone who makes bad decisions should be allowed to die and no effort should be made to help them? So if you were to make bad decisions that ended up with you in the gutter you wouldn't want any help since you would deserve the consequences of your actions? What does this say about the government bailing out the people who made bad decisions and ended up destabilizing the economy? Are these people somehow more important than some who made bad decisions but only hurt himself? Should the people who destabilized the economy by greed and manipulation be thrown into the gutter as well? Why not?

[Zythryn]

Questor, there is a big difference between society providing support for basic needs and accepting all responsibility for people.

This 'all or nothing' way of thinking comes across in virtually all of your posts.

Yet you don't seem to rail against our current level of support for fire, police and education which are provided by society.

I AGREE with you that there should be personal responsibility in life. I also believe that a society should provide some aid and support for its members. I don't feel that is unreasonable and I also feel that doing so actually improves life for everyone in that society, whether they get direct aid or not.

[Pyrotex]

Right on, Z!

In this REAL world we live in, there is a SPECTRUM of personal responsibility and other SPECTRUMS of luck, consequences and liability. Questor is focused on just the extremes of those spectrums. Whenever one of us tries to discuss an example of someone who is otherwise honest and responsible, but who encounters a random crisis (say, cancer for example), Questor shoots immediately for the other extreme, and rails us about the lazy, the drunks, the addicts, the self-destructive jerks.

 

Questor doesn't want to discuss or even confront the middle grounds of reality.

Prolly, because he doesn't want to confront his own personal position in the middle grounds of reality. My theory is, Q wants to believe in his own infallible and luckfull position at the golden extreme of responsibility--so that he can believe that he "deserves" to avoid the unpleasant consequences of being alive in this, our current culture.

 

The sky will NEVER fall on Q, because he "deserves" better.

If the sky falls on US, it's because we must "deserve" it.

 

In this entirely plausible manner, Q not only deserves to keep ALL his income for his own well-deserving and damnnear perfect self, but he gets to ignore all the suffering and injustice in the world around him with total impunity.

 

Gosh, that must be nice.

[Moontanman]

I just found out some sweetheart has taken $500 from my bank account illegally, checks are bouncing all over hell and creation. I guess it's all my fault for not planning ahead to take illegal acts into consideration. **** happens to people sometimes, **** we cannot avoid or prevent, sometimes this **** can be the straw that breaks the camels back and starts a chain of events that eventually results in homelessness. It can be much harder to climb back out that anyone who hasn't had the chain of events happen to them can imagine. there simply is no black and white, no way to say he doesn't deserve help and he does. I wouldn't want to live in a society where simply making a bad decision results in a chain of events that can lead to being destitute. I am lucky, i am in good enough standing that my bank is going to take care of the problem but many people are not in a situation to survive even a small problem much less a large one. I don't understand the point of view that cannot see this.

[questor]

I won't reply to those who use non-sequiturs and can't seem to understand the words I have written, but choose to paraphrase and substitute THEIR version of what I think. I did not think my English was so opaque. If someone wishes to discuss what I HAVE written, I'll be happy to oblige.

As far as those who are responsible for our financial melt down, I would strip them of all assets: cars, houses, planes, boats and cash. Also I would consider some jail time. For the congressmen who continually pushed for loans to those who did not qualify, I would strip them of any chairmanships and or seniority perks.

[Moontanman]

I won't reply to those who use non-sequiturs and can't seem to understand the words I have written, but choose to paraphrase and substitute THEIR version of what I think. I did not think my English was so opaque. If someone wishes to discuss what I HAVE written, I'll be happy to oblige.

As far as those who are responsible for our financial melt down, I would strip them of all assets: cars, houses, planes, boats and cash. Also I would consider some jail time. For the congressmen who continually pushed for loans to those who did not qualify, I would strip them of any chairmanships and or seniority perks.

 

WOW Questor, we are on the same wave length again! I may have to go make sure my membership in the Liberal club is still active! Maybe I'm really a closet Conservative after all. I am in your corner on this one dude. :hyper:

[Zythryn]

If someone wishes to discuss what I HAVE written, I'll be happy to oblige.

 

Fine, lets do just that.

You said to Dave:

Dave, you are very interested in making society responsible for all citizens.

 

I don't believe Dave ever said he wants society to take 'all' responsibility, just to provide for the basic needs (food, clean water, protection from heat/cold).

Do you not feel that is important and the place of society?

 

As far as those who are responsible for our financial melt down, I would strip them of all assets: cars, houses, planes, boats and cash. Also I would consider some jail time. For the congressmen who continually pushed for loans to those who did not qualify, I would strip them of any chairmanships and or seniority perks.

 

We find agreement there:) Although I would add those that allowed unregulated insurance to be sold under the guise of 'default credit swaps'.

[questor]

I think society should help those who cannot help themselves. Some people who can work may have short term reasons they need help, which we should do. I do not think we should help people who WILL NOT work, but are able to work. This takes money from the workers families and from those who honestly need it. Welfare was supposed to help the helpless, but it turned into a giant scam on the taxpayer when able-bodied people abused the system. I have dealt with this question before, I hope this makes it clear. Anyone reading this post is being scammed the same as I am. Your taxes are going up and the scams will continue. Wouldn't it be better for everyone if all citizens would try to become trained and educated for a better job and a better life?

[Zythryn]

Yes, I am in complete agreement with that statement.

Now, how do you provide aid to those that need it and deny aid to those able to work who also have the opportunity to work, but would rather live on the public dime?

If that is not possible, I would rather err on the side of giving aid to too many, rather than too few.

[freeztar]

Yes, I am in complete agreement with that statement.

Now, how do you provide aid to those that need it and deny aid to those able to work who also have the opportunity to work, but would rather live on the public dime?

If that is not possible, I would rather err on the side of giving aid to too many, rather than too few.

 

It is possible to keep better tabs on it. A seemingly good way to make sure that those that are receiving aid are those that most deserve it is to increase the number of people keeping tabs on the system. Unfortunately, corruption is almost certain and it becomes an issue of 'who's policing the police'?

[Michaelangelica]

Latest Programs

Sunday 26 October 2008

Listen Now - 26102008 | Download Audio - 26102008

The great divide

 

Underneath the economic storm clouds lies a nation deeply riven. The richest country in the world is experiencing inequality in wealth and opportunity on a scale that rivals any other time in the past century.

But is it as simple as redistributing wealth? Ironically, it may just be the American Dream that gets in the way.

Big Ideas

 

intersting radio programme on Super capitalism

 

Hoping it convinces a few Yanks to

[Zythryn]

There is some fascinating information about the French health care system and the mess we are in with the US health care system on CBS Sunday Morning. If you didn't see it today it is online at: Health care at Sunday Morning

[Southtown]

The Money Masters - Part 1 of 2 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6076118677860424204