The Lunar Soapbox...

[Tormod]

'Twould seem you can buy it on the cheap right now! It's a bit like the old West in terms of staking a claim:

 

The Lunar Embassy is a fraudulent company, selling something they don't own the right to in the first place. Even if they can use legalese to claim that the Outer Space Treaty - Outer Space Treaty - does not apply to individuals, they as an organization have to jump through a lot of burning hoops to explain why they have a right to sell land on a body they have never set foot on.

 

And anyway, how are they planning to enforce the land property claims?

[moo]

My understanding is that the moon will be treated much like antartica. It will belong to no nation, and it will be the host to cooperative international research. This will last as long as the presence there remains unprofitable.

Sadly, this is probably a very accurate prediction. The "good of mankind" is great motivation for cooperation until monetary gain becomes a possibility. :D

 

moo

[Turtle]

Like all good exploration, let's just get there & then decide what to do with it.

 

How long do you all think we have before a baby is born on the Moon? :phones:

 

Dou you all think a baby will be born in space first? 0.o

[InfiniteNow]

The Lunar Embassy is a fraudulent company, selling something they don't own the right to in the first place.

You are more kind in your words than I would have been. I'd have said that they are making money by hood-winking individuals succeptible to such strategies. No better than a shyster preacher or travelling faith healer...

 

And anyway, how are they planning to enforce the land property claims?

 

While my reference above to the old West in the US would imply that violence would be the means of enforcement , whomever takes possession will likely do so through the golden rule... The one who has the gold, makes the rules.

 

:phones:

[Jay-qu]

Dont get me wrong Im all for going there, but I just think NASA may have a hard time explaining what good this will be to average Joe who is in part funding the exbidition.

 

I say we get there first on the prophesy and set up some of those space cannons we have been prototyping :phones:

 

its mine, all mine

[moo]

How long do you all think we have before a baby is born on the Moon? :phones:

 

Dou you all think a baby will be born in space first? 0.o 0.o

A baby... what?

 

Some bio stuff has been done in space with newts laying eggs as far back as '94...

http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/missions/sts-65/news/sts-65-pocc-12.txt

 

However... there might be some problems with a human baby's development in a gravity free environment. Bone density and shape perhaps...

NASA Quest > Space Team Online

 

But to answer the question, I'm guessing it will be a l-o-o-o-o-n-g time, and probably happen in space first (for a faster return to earth in case of complications, if for no other reason). :)

 

moo

[niin]

And so we're going back to the moon, right?

 

How to justify it?

 

They can't justify it. It is a selfish PR campaign.

There is no good reasons (benefiting mankind) for going to the moon anytime soon.

They wouldn't never said that, but that is the truth.

The money could easily be used better elsewhere.

If i wanted to be impressed, i would rather watch a movie. Would be alot cheaper too.

A moon colony would be a very expensive laboratory, far far away. Just silly.

 

Why did humanity end up covering the planet? By exploring and traveling.

we covered the planet, because we could easily adapt to every place we arrived. The moon and space is a different kind of challenge.

[Turtle]

A moon colony would be a very expensive laboratory, far far away. Just silly.

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we covered the planet, because we could easily adapt to every place we arrived. The moon and space is a different kind of challenge.

 

Challenge is the key word. What we may think of as easy today, such as crossing the seas in small boats, or sending pictures invisibly through the air, were expensive and considerable challenges for early peeps. Without ever increasingly complex challenges to overcome, humans have little or nothing to strive for. "We do these things because they are hard." - JFK :rolleyes:

[Boerseun]

I like your continuity of subtle resentments and jabs at America and Americans in general.

Nothing particular against America or Americans, Racoon, the fact is that the dumbing down of society can be easily verified by watching ten minutes of any television channel of your choice. The reason I picked the States is because they have been to the moon, and have declared their intention of going back there. I want to contrast this intention with the possibility of rather routing those funds into education, so that the dumbing down of society can be braked, at least in the US.

Much of the 'dumbing down' is a direct result of invading hordes of uneducated immigrants.

...slightly xenophobic, dontcha think?

...system that was designed decades ago and is severely underfunded.

That's my point, send the moon money to the schools - would that make any significant difference in 50 years? Then maybe think about going back to the moon, once the tide of stupidity have been turned.

On to Mars instead!

I'd love to see it happen in my lifetime, if only for the 'coolness' factor. But that'll be a hard sell, I guess... although GWB did talk in that direction, there is no way he can commit future administrations to it. Bush senior committed to a return to the moon in his reign, to much public acclaim, only to have his plans scrapped by the Clinton administration - then to have it modified and revived by his son. Sounds kinda Darth Vaderish... (What is it with the Bush family, Iraq & the moon? ) [/que X-Files soundtrack]

[Turtle]

Nothing particular against America or Americans, Racoon, the fact is that the dumbing down of society can be easily verified by watching ten minutes of any television channel of your choice. The reason I picked the States is because they have been to the moon, and have declared their intention of going back there. I want to contrast this intention with the possibility of rather routing those funds into education, so that the dumbing down of society can be braked, at least in the US.

 

 

I choose the science and history channels and public broadcasting; they smarten people up if they watch more than 10 minutes. American students and the public, in my humble opinion, were actually inspired to study science by the space race of the 60's and 70's. Such endeavors are smarteners () , not dumbers, as well as inspirations to strive for something that is both challenging and worthwhile. Not only Americans watched in awe as Neal stepped out of the lander; the whole world was transfixed. We need more such activities I think, not less. Who's tougher; a gangbanger or an astronaut?

[Racoon]

Nothing particular against America or Americans, Racoon, the fact is that the dumbing down of society can be easily verified by watching ten minutes of any television channel of your choice.

 

...slightly xenophobic, dontcha think?

 

I take offense to the word Xenophobe and Homophobe.

Both translate to a fear of Foreigners and Homos.

 

I don't fear them, I am repulsed by their sexual behaviors and their willingness to break the laws of our society.

 

I see the gears of the Ultra-Left Democratic working. This PoliticalCorrectness biz' is out of control. If you speak out or are offended by people invading your country illegally, then some how you are a xenophobe.

 

Bullshit.

 

Apologies for sidetracking this thread.

 

I concur with the waste of political and financial capital to go back to the moon.

 

Why would China want to go to the moon if the U.S. already has?

With the amount of stolen technology they've aquired, one might question their motives.

[Boerseun]

I take offense to the word Xenophobe and Homophobe.

 

Both translate to a fear of Foreigners and Faggots.

 

I don't fear them, I am repulsed by their sexual behaviors and their willingness to break the laws of our society.

 

I see the gears of the Ultra-Left Democratic working. This PoliticalCorrectness biz' is out of control. If you speak out or are offended against people invading your country illegally, or some guy ramming his penis in another mans ***, then some how you are a 'phobe.

 

Bullshit.

Rac, if you've got any problems with foreigners and/or homosexuals, I would advise you to open up another thread and pursue the matter there. And also, in slightly less colourful language. I'm raising points here as to how to justify going to the moon - so don't hijack it now, and don't try to be obnoxious.

 

Cheers

[Boerseun]

I choose the science and history channels and public broadcasting; they smarten people up if they watch more than 10 minutes. :doh:

Hey - great idea! So maybe we can use some of the moon money to launch an ad campaign to lure the audience away from FTV, MTV, Cartoon Network, Reality TV and all the other channels showing mindless crap. They are terminal for anybody's mental faculties if watched for any amount of time. And, unfortunately, they have the biggest slice of the viewing pie.

American students and the public, in my humble opinion, were actually inspired to study science by the space race of the 60's and 70's. Such endeavors are smarteners (;)) , not dumbers, as well as inspirations to strive for something that is both challenging and worthwhile.

Definitely. But that's my point, see. Let's say the US goes back to the moon. It will definitely inspire a certain percentage of the population to aspire to greater heights and achieve more, but will it do anything at all for the vast majority? How would this compare to, say, not going to the moon at all, but rather use that money to inject it into the whole educational system, from the bottom up? Granted, the effect felt by an individual student might not be large, but the base of application is accross the board, with a much broader effect. How would these two scenarios stack up, if compared 50 years down the line?

Not only Americans watched in awe as Neal stepped out of the lander; the whole world was transfixed. We need more such activities I think, not less. Who's tougher; a gangbanger or an astronaut?

That was awesome, yes. But keep in mind that the Apollo program eventually got canned because of, amongst other reasons, public interest waning. Once the excitement of the initial landing was over and done with, it turned out that there was other programs on TV with better special effects and a better storyline.

 

If the main reason for going back to the moon is once again political, like it was in the 1960's, I think in the long run it'll simply be a waste of money that could've been better spent somewhere else. Spending billions of dollars to have awesome footage that's shown on one afternoon of rating-breaking TV, as compared to the raising of educational standards for millions of kids across the country, won't pay off in my opinion.

[Racoon]

If the main reason for going back to the moon is once again political, like it was in the 1960's, I think in the long run it'll simply be a waste of money that could've been better spent somewhere else. Spending billions of dollars to have awesome footage that's shown on one afternoon of rating-breaking TV, as compared to the raising of educational standards for millions of kids across the country, won't pay off in my opinion.

 

What do you think the political agenda behind it is? aside from being a total albatross of tax-payer money?

 

Whats to be gained by repeating a long since passed historic achievement? Are the politicians so unoriginal, or the American mass so stupid, as to fall again in love with another Moon Visit ?

 

Why would the Chinese try to duplicate it? If they themselves weren't involved in the same type of politics you're questioning?

 

Of course the money could be better spent. so could most money the government spends.

[Tormod]

The question of China "duplicating" the US is not too interesting. Russians were first in space - does that mean that everything done since is just "copying the Russians"?

 

The Moon belongs to all of us (as of yet) and the establishment of a base there will be a hugely important event - both historically and strategically. The US is building a space railroad track between the Earth and the Moon in order to facilitate going back and forth to sustain a permanent presence.

 

Now imagine the consequences of owning the infrastructure between here and there. They can sell partnerships, rights-to-use, service agreements...it is a unique situation for the US to inject a serious amount of vitamins into the space industry. I predict that it will create a large amount of jobs, both skilled and unskilled, and will generate huge amounts of money. The initial part will cost tons of money for the US government, yes. But the *return* on that investment is that the commercial companies can then step in and start making money off the Moon, and the ways to get there.

 

It is a truly visionary project and it is way beyond anything that was done in the Apollo era. Apollo was all about "just doing it". This time it is being done much more methodically, with an intent of creating a sustained space travel industry. If it succeeds, it will be a landmark project in history.

 

And don't forget that the international pressure will be there. If the US do not do this, Europe will. Europe has plans for manned missions to the Moon by 2025, and to Mars by 2035. They are going there. The Asians will go there. There will be a giant industry surrounding these travels, and a lot of people will get jobs and a lot of people will get to travel into space.

[CraigD]

0.o aside,

How long do you all think we have before a baby is born on the Moon?

Strikes me as a serious question (though I’ve been accused of taking everything as a serious question ;)).

 

Assuming a lunar population of [math]W[/math] sexually active women using best-available birth control methods with a success rate of [math]E[/math], prompt detection of pregnancy, a strict policy of evacuating pregnant women to Earth, and a maximum capability of transporting people from the moon to Earth of [math]R[/math] within the period of time between detection and latest safe travel date, then the first baby born on the moon can be expected when [math]W \cdot (1-E) \ge R[/math].

 

Among the general population using many methods of birth control, [math]E \overset.= 0.8[/math]. For the best populations, [math]E \overset.= 0.99[/math]. The pharmacological maximum is [math]E \overset.= 0.9995[/math], for hormonal implants (eg: Norplant), (which may have serious side effects). The surgical maximum is [math]E \overset.= 0.995[/math] for women (tubal ligation) and [math]E \overset.= 0.9985[/math] for men (vasectomy)

 

Assuming the spacecraft available for moon colonization is the planned US Orion vehicle, a continuous 1/60 day launch schedule, no or limited “stockpiling” of spacecraft at the moon, the first baby on the moon will occur at [math]180 \le W \le 3600[/math]. Further assuming the maximum colonization rate, the planned start date of 2024, and a 50/50 male/female ratio, we can expect the first baby around 2040 to 2240.

 

There are an awful lot of ifs and assumptions in the above, however, so I don’t have much confidence in it as a prediction. Much more likely, I think, is that birth on extraterrestrial planets and in space, if it occurs, will be planned, not accidental.

Dou you all think a baby will be born in space first?

This is essentially the same as the question “do you think more people will colonize space (eg: O'Neill colonies) than the moon.

 

My personal opinion is more people should colonize space than the moon, but that both possibilities depend on so many technical and political unknowns that my personal opinion is worth about as much as the disk space it’s written on. “We’ll see” seems the only confident prediction.

[Tormod]

we can expect the first baby around 2040 to 2240.

 

I could have told you that. :doh: