Natural it is

[Todesangst]

It was just a thought. Ever wonder why people called something natural as *natural*. :wink: its a bit tricky, but i guess everyone understand what i'm trying to say. Anyway, i guess this is the right forum eh. and thanks for the help Tormod.

[sanctus]

Welcome to the forum and yes it is the right place to post it.

 

I think it's a matter of convention. For example humans are made by nature, so they are natural therfore every action of a human is natural. I guess you know heaps of human actions that are not usually classified of natural.

 

I think the convention is that the a thing is natural if the human action on it is minimised.

[Freethinker]

True Sanctus. By agreed convention "Natural" tends to mean things that happen without human interaction. Even though humans are nature and as such our actions should not be considered UNnatural.

[TINNY]

Because I believe in free-will and that only humans have it, I say that humans are not natural meaning they can act independently from the influences of nature.

I say that there is one general rule of nature - the progression of matter. That's the only natural thing. So if human beings were to act in accordance with the progression of matter, then its a natural thing to do.

That's what I call natural.

 

*yawning*getting sleepy*yawning*

[lindagarrette]

Humans think they have free will because they don't understand how the universe works. This topic has been covered pretty thoroughly in otherthreads and in hypographies. It is another one of those "belief" systems that has no basis in reality.

[Freethinker]

Because I believe in free-will and that only humans have it,

Tinny, show us ANY example of humans havng a freewill that other animals do not. Not one based on a superior intellect (other animal's can't create an effective spreadsheet), but show us an example of how a human can take an action that reflects freewill while all other animals would not have that option.

[TINNY]

Freethinker, you'll never accept anything from me as right. And rightly so I suppose.... thus my signature.

I don't know how to show you free-will because I have to show that a person can make two or more different choices in an exact situation and that the choices were made because they wanted to. How can I show this when no moment is the exact same as before?

[TINNY]

A deterministic world implies an infinitely old universe since one moment is caused by the moments before it. If the universe had a starting point, then that starting point must be an act of freewill.

[Todesangst]

anyone kind enough to give me the meaning of natural and nature from the sense of philosophy. I think its pretty important for the topic. Thanks for the reply and i certainly hope no one ever thinks that he is always right. Have a nice day and feel free to forward your ideas(as if i needed to say that).

[Todesangst]

I would personally say that the word natural is introduce to us human by the fact that some of the things in the world which existed or rather happens seems to be unexplainable. take an example of sex. this might be a little bit out of the topic but i hope somebody can see something through it. Why do we need to have sex. why are we so interested in sex. Think about it and you'll see what i mean. By chance, most people would answer that we have sex in order to preserve our existance or rather the existance of our species in this universe. such answer will only lead to the question why do we need to exist. And it is pretty obvious someone would answer that it is natural for human beings to want to let their blood continue to roam the world. the word natural seems to be playing around with us. In other word try not to use the word natural/nature in your reply(as much as you can). in another comlicated example. ahhhh..... maybe i will keep that for later. Pretty long already

[Freethinker]

Freethinker, you'll never accept anything from me as right. And rightly so I suppose.... thus my signature.

Awe Tinny, don't feel picked on! I treat all the same. A claim is made and I don't think it is supportable so I ask for support. "Right" or wrong is wide open. The way to find out which will be based on data supplied.

I don't know how to show you free-will because I have to show that a person can make two or more different choices in an exact situation and that the choices were made because they wanted to. How can I show this when no moment is the exact same as before?

My question was not based on what is free will, but the claim that we as humans have it exclusively of all the animal kingdom. I see this once more as a claim of some special attribute in the metaphysical sense. That humans have some exrta-natural connections/ ability.

 

So what we need to see is examples of how that works. Of how a human has some metaphysical difference.

 

What your saying is that you can not even provide an example to show that free will even exists for humans. So perhaps we need to question not just human uniqueness, but the very existence of Free Will.

[Freethinker]

A deterministic world implies an infinitely old universe since one moment is caused by the moments before it. If the universe had a starting point, then that starting point must be an act of freewill.

It does not follow. A deterministic world only shows that from point A on, everything follows a path established at point A. Not anything about PRE- point A.

 

It is easy to understand, based on models connected with the BB that our spacetime did not exist before it. Thus any causal relationships break down at it. That forward time causality does not have to go back "before time".

[Freethinker]

I would personally say that the word natural is introduce to us human by the fact that some of the things in the world which existed or rather happens seems to be unexplainable.

If something exists that is not explainable (by nature/ natural occurance), then it would require SUPERnatural existence. So far no such example has occured. While there are many issues in which we do not have solidly established explanations, there are none so far which reuire some existence outside of nature to explain.

 

"We don't know exactly." so far does not require "therefore supernatural" as the only potential answer.

take an example of sex. this might be a little bit out of the topic but i hope somebody can see something through it. Why do we need to have sex. why are we so interested in sex. Think about it and you'll see what i mean. By chance, most people would answer that we have sex in order to preserve our existance or rather the existance of our species in this universe. such answer will only lead to the question why do we need to exist.

You were doing fine before you inserted "need" to exist. This specifies "intent", or the requirement for an intellectual agent outside of nature. There is nothing that justifies such a claim. The question is not WHY do we NEED to exist, but is there anything that REUIRES us to exist? The answer to that is NO. Nothing in nature REUIRES the existence of any specific species. Nature would do just fine without any individual species, including humans.

 

Our sex "drive" (perhaps what you were referring to?) is an evolutionary genetic hardwired function. By establishing reenforcements that promote sex, the "drive" helps assure that one species continuation. Everything has finite energy resources. By evolving a high sex drive, continuation of species can surpass survival of the individual. If a species does not have a strong sex drive, it has a lower evolutionary advantage than one that does. Less chance that species will continue.

[TINNY]

i notice the toned down manner. (just giving positive reinforcements)

[TINNY]

Awe Tinny, don't feel picked on!

;) oh, that's a pleasant surprise.

I treat all the same. A claim is made and I don't think it is supportable so I ask for support. "Right" or wrong is wide open. The way to find out which will be based on data supplied.

it so happens that you never try to evaluate my side of the argument. you have profound abhorrence towards metaphysics. skepticism must be your virue.

 

My question was not based on what is free will, but the claim that we as humans have it exclusively of all the animal kingdom. I see this once more as a claim of some special attribute in the metaphysical sense. That humans have some exrta-natural connections/ ability.

I have to clarify my stand first. I believe that humans have free-will, but their actions are also partly determined by external influence - the physical, social, and umm, divine factors.

 

1. Humans have made the biggest observable difference on the planet compared to other species. This suggests our ability to use symbolic language to think independent of external influences.

2. Behavioral psychology - the demise of behaviorist ideology based on an addition of inner speech in the formation of our total past learning history which influences our actions(read the attachment)

3. Humanism? I thought it is opposed to behaviourism and promotes free-will and responsibility of our actions

4. Ultimately, it leads to a question of metaphysics. My view is that the special theory of relativity offers the possibility that our mind is linked to a the soul due to the nature of light as a means of conveying information in the form of EMR.

 

What your saying is that you can not even provide an example to show that free will even exists for humans. So perhaps we need to question not just human uniqueness, but the very existence of Free Will.

As I said, would it be logical if we were to see one action done by someone, then go back in time, and observe a different action at that exact time? ;)

[TINNY]

It does not follow. A deterministic world only shows that from point A on, everything follows a path established at point A. Not anything about PRE- point A.

Yeah.. you're right. It ultimately boils down to a question of metaphysics on the essential fabric of existence.

 

It is easy to understand, based on models connected with the BB that our spacetime did not exist before it. Thus any causal relationships break down at it. That forward time causality does not have to go back "before time".

nicely put.

[TINNY]

If something exists that is not explainable (by nature/ natural occurance), then it would require SUPERnatural existence. So far no such example has occured. While there are many issues in which we do not have solidly established explanations, there are none so far which reuire some existence outside of nature to explain.

that implies a deterministic world. so science is essentially causality.

 

"We don't know exactly." so far does not require "therefore supernatural" as the only potential answer.

Fully agreed.

 

Our sex "drive" (perhaps what you were referring to?) is an evolutionary genetic hardwired function. By establishing reenforcements that promote sex, the "drive" helps assure that one species continuation. Everything has finite energy resources. By evolving a high sex drive, continuation of species can surpass survival of the individual. If a species does not have a strong sex drive, it has a lower evolutionary advantage than one that does. Less chance that species will continue.

so everyone should have sex all the time and babies scatter everywhere; and that leads to immorality and improper upbringing and conflicts and fighting for food, water, space...