Boerseun Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 I'm not too sure whether this thread should go in Biology or Philosophy, but here goes... A single termite is a useless creature, quite incapable of survival. However, having hordes of them, organisation comes to the fore which enables a decently-sized colony of termites to compete in nature with grazers of a much bigger stature in terms of food consumption. A termite colony can be said to be the insect world's answer to the niche filled by antelope in the mammalian world. A termite colony can consume as much vegetable matter as any antelope, if not more, on a daily basis. Antelopes are hunted by lions and other beasts of prey. The same, once again, in the insect world. The answer to the lions, are the driver ants. These animals keep on the move, never settling down to build a nest. They carry their larvae around in their search for prey, and only bivouacs once the larvae stops secreting a specific pheromone, indicating that they are about to hatch. Then, the driver ant colony will form a ball of living ants, a living nest, complete with passageways in which the queen will be inserted and fed. Then, after a week or so, she will lay up to 300,000 eggs; once hatched, the new-born larvae will once again secrete pheromones which will stimulate the living ball of ants to disentangle, taking up the hunt once again. A driver ant colony is quite capable of killing and eating any animal, be it insect or mammal, which cannot run away from them. They are the insect answer to the mammalian beasts of prey, and they do indeed compete for the same food sources. In both these cases, the whole colony acts like an individual animal of much bigger stature, and easily consumes an equivalent amount of food every day than, say, a lion or an antelope. It's a very elegant solution to the niches that exist - where the colony thrives, and the individual insect matters little. If a troop of driver ants pull down an animal, thousands of times their size, the loss of a few hundred or even thousand individuals are of no consequence. The colony is what matters, and the colony ultimately benefits from the deaths of those unfortunate individuals. These tiny animals have formed a superorganism, an organism which is much more than the sum of its parts. Now the above is nothing new; but there are applications to our level: Our global culture have been acting for years in the same way. Individuals band together, and through forming governments and nations, have created quite unique superorganisms in their own right. The World Wars seen in the 20th century can be seen as these organisms bashing heads for supremacy on this very small grazing ground. The USA and USSR were prime examples of the same during the Cold War, where the world was politically divided into those 'organisms' (states) who see the USA as the Alpha Male, and those that saw the USSR as the Alpha Male. Today, however, with globalization were are entering a new stage, where the organism is growing, assimilating the smaller ones into one huge globe-spanning superorganism. The internet can be seen as the pheromone system of the ant world, where a new idea takes hold and is swiftly disseminated throughout the 'colony'. Making another comparison to the ant world, any one individual left isolated (classic 'desert island' scenario) will be reduced to the stone age, or very easily death; any one ant left isolated will soon die. The 'Hive Mind' is nothing new, but using the ant and termite colonies as an example, there seems to be some truth to it. So - here we are. An ant colony competes with mammals for the same resources. What would a globe-spanning culture be competing with? A globe-spanning human 'colony', having complete access to all conceivable resources on the planet will have no other animal to be compared against, and will rule supreme in all possible niches. This 'colony' will compete with mammals for grazing, where grazing land is converted into agricultural land. It will compete with beasts of prey by hunting the prey. It will compete with any conceivable animal inhabiting any conceivable niche - and because of the resourcefullness of the individuals making up the colony, it will not only compete, but it will win every single time. Beasts of prey, like lions, will be removed from their habitat, to provide entertainment for the human superorganism in the form of zoos, etc. This is the first time that evolution (on Earth, at least) have made it possible for a species to harvest resources on other planets as well, increasing the 'grazing range' of the species immensely. The human 'superorganism' is much, much more than the sum of its parts, much like an ant colony. But doesn't it make sense, in this analogy, that the human 'superorganism' is the ultimate answer to Life? The ultimate ideal of evolution? What other organism, or superorganism, have complete access to all the resources on the planet? Does an ant know what its doing, in partaking in the organism?When you pay your taxes to the central government, are you 'feeding the queen ant'?A rat in a cage will eat all the food until it dies. What will an organism do which inhabits the whole Earth? If this is true, our nearest comparable competing animal would be a similarly globalised culture on another planet. If they are exposed to the same rules of evolution as we are (which I'm convinced they are), won't this imply interstellar warfare, until there is, once again, only one organism left, but competing for the same resources now on two planets? Increasing its range, so to speak. This needn't be a bloody war, it might merely be a cultural invasion to the point where the two cultures can't be discerned from each other - a merge, like USA and Japan, for instance - sure, Japan has got some cultural traits which the USA doesn't have, and vice versa, but the similarities are getting more than the differences, day by day, but their economies are so intertwined, that the welfare of the one is critical to the welfare of the other. It's basically two parts of the same 'organism'. And we can take this further - thousands of years from now, when our culture might have merged with that from another planet, we will make contact with a third, then a fourth, then a fifth planet, etc., until all the weaker ones will have been assimilated into one big galaxy-spanning super-duper-hyperorganism. (Provided there's enough time before the last stars die...) Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffy Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 Does an ant know what its doing, in partaking in the organism?No more than a die-hard Republican does when he votes for a Bush. I don't think there's any question that societies are indeed organisms. Different hives/governments war with eachother. They grow (well, except Russia). They reproduce (throwing off your colonial masters!). They're sentient (even the sentient can make stupid decisions). The interest of the individual does not even necessarily have to be aligned with that of the society (Adam Smith's invisible hand). Sure. I think we've got lots of conflict to deal with before we get to the next inhabited solar system though. The notion of merger though is a really bizarre one. Is there a parallel we can find that is not purely sociological? Resistance is futile,Buffy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFaithfulStone Posted December 20, 2006 Report Share Posted December 20, 2006 This brings up the question about we ourselves haven't been conquered, assimilated, eaten, whatever, by a much more advanced super organism already. It took what, 3 or 4 million years for us to go from australeopithecus to homo sapiens? There are a LOT of 3 or 4 millon year time intervals in this galaxy on planets that are probably not too far off habitable. So, to steal it from Enrico Fermi - "where is everybody?" TFS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 This brings up the question about we ourselves haven't been conquered, assimilated, eaten, whatever, by a much more advanced super organism already.Cancer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffy Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Cancer?Oooohh! That's a really interesting idea! Cancer is this massive distributed organism that has this symbiotic relationship with all higher mammals.... Are the different forms (lung, colon, etc.) different entities competing with eachother for dominance? Does it possess intelligence? Good one, Now! Don't look back, they *are* gaining on you, Buffy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Cancer is this massive distributed organism that has this symbiotic relationship with all higher mammals....I'm curious on your use of the term "symbiotic" as pertains to cancer. Is that really your intended description of it's relationship with higher mammals? I imagine it is, but maybe you could clarify? I always saw cancer as a disease or a disorder... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffy Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Oh to us it is a disease! Symbiotic relationships do not have to be entirely harmless: there's a really grey line between "symbiot" and "parasite", and I guess I'd agree that cancer is probably best described as the latter, but remember that cancer likes to go for ages without causing any harm, and then it kicks in with the rapid growth that kills both it and its host off, and you can argue that its useful life is when its *not* malignant, but serves exactly the same "role" as it does to the animal host: simply a way to die: a side effect, rather than being the goal. Just randomly following the idea.... Creepy crawlies,Buffy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteNow Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Boerseun, FaithfulStone, what are your thoughts? Random walks are best taken at the beach or in space... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maikeru Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 I'm curious on your use of the term "symbiotic" as pertains to cancer. Is that really your intended description of it's relationship with higher mammals? I imagine it is, but maybe you could clarify? I always saw cancer as a disease or a disorder... Cancer's a dastardly rogue who needs to mind his manners. I'm not sure I'd consider cancer a superorganism in the same sense as ants, bees, termites, etc. It's more like the ultimate example of Darwinian evolution going on in *us*. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallenrm Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 An thread I find really interesting after a long time. Great thought dear Boerseun. It brings to my mind a whole lot of social issues besides biological. Indeed the classification of this thread could be in Sociobiology, a hybrid of biology and sociology. :weather_snowing: The idea has been fascinating for me ever since I read a science fiction story by Isaac Asimov, whose title I cannot recall at the moment, but I must have somewhere cited in my older posts (perhaps in the thread Organism<=>organization. I have always wondered "what is an organism?" is it just an object that we classify as a biological entity, or much more! Does the limit of an organism is only upto the body of a multicellular entity we recognize as a plant, animal or whatsoever. Populations of such entities, whether homogeneous (like an ant colony) or heterogeneous as the inhabitants of the planet Earth have a characteristic dynamics of their own. Thus, it would be foolish, at least in my opinion, to bind the definition of an organism within the limits of a particular shape of a body. In fact, an organism is invariably made up of several sub organisms, for example, a human body is composed of very many organisms. Thus, any organism, can be considered to constitute several other organisms, sub organisms or super organisms. Within any society their are various cults, religious or otherwise. Even otherwise there are various kinds of people: scientists, politicians, criminals.......hypographers! It really feels great to think and post on such a subject. I'll be back!:) Charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDMclean Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 I would ask what the results are if we throw in the jump from statistical evolution to engineered evolution (for diversity, not conformity)? That is what about when (not if) we start designing ourselves? What happens when the organism becomes transmorphic? Capable of adapting not only the super organism to the task, but the sub organisms making up the super organism to the task at hand? Cybernetics, genetic engineering, nano-robotics, neurology, engineered intellegence (AI or EI). All of these things take us ever closer to the realization of the transmorphic species. I would ask, would this not affect your question regarding what do we compete with? What happens when the superorganism competes with itself? x, x*x, x*x*x, ... [math]x^{n^{th}}[/math] perhaps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boerseun Posted December 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Oooohh! That's a really interesting idea! Cancer is this massive distributed organism that has this symbiotic relationship with all higher mammals.... Are the different forms (lung, colon, etc.) different entities competing with eachother for dominance? Does it possess intelligence?Although an interesting idea, I doubt it. Cancer isn't a disease or an organism as such, it's merely a malfunction. Every instance of evolution can also be argumented to be a form of cancer, only accidentally beneficial! A more likely organism could be yeast, having been controlling humans for thousands of years, us unwitting slaves to lager, taking exceedingly good care of our yeast, nurturing it, and being paid for it in the form of a good buzz. Now that is a clever way of filling a niche by such an innocent-looking critter like yeast - you invent a payoff to get the most advanced species on the planet to look after you and take care of you! We are slaves to the yeast! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJP07 Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Seems to be making a mountain out of a pile of sand because your story contains absolutely no truth ( except some ecological evidence eg. ants ) and just a prolonged exaggeration that ultimately is pointless to be discussing in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffy Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 Seems to be making a mountain out of a pile of sand because your story contains absolutely no truth ( except some ecological evidence eg. ants ) and just a prolonged exaggeration that ultimately is pointless to be discussing in the first place.Why is it a problem for you if you think we're wasting our time? Its our time to waste, pal.... I agree with your interp, B, cancer certainly stretches the boundaries, but it does raise the issue of whether its possible to see organism-like behavior among related individual "elements" that are not truly self-reproducing. Insights in the *behavior* might be relevant, but its probably distracting for now.... Moving the beach with tweezers,Buffy Boerseun 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJP07 Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 I was just suggesting that there is no scientific basis for such a " story " to develop, talk about it as much as you like, But I'm just expressing my opinion as to it's scientific knowledge. Not everyone is going to agree and those that don't need to express their opinons to get a good debate as to the theory, one of which above is not comprehendable and similar in lines with UFOs' being called aeroplanes. A complete misinterpretation. I acknowledge the time and effort put into writing the article, but I would like more theory behind it's actual theory and back it up with some science instead of developing what seems to be a story. No offense intended on any parties side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffy Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 We are so far engaging in serendipity, but that is a valid part of the scientific process! It is an *extreme* interpretation however to say that there is no scientific basis for the theory being discussed here. It is quite obvious that social *groups* display all of the standard mechanisms described for individual organism: they grow, reproduce, evolve, have "genetic" mechanisms--cultural knowledge as well as the dna of the individual components--, compete for resources with other superorganisms, etc. You're free to have that opinion, but you'd better do better than to simply dismiss it if you're going to join in the debate--which we would welcome! We're not a gang, we're a club, :)Buffy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infamous Posted December 21, 2006 Report Share Posted December 21, 2006 A more likely organism could be yeast, having been controlling humans for thousands of years, us unwitting slaves to lager, taking exceedingly good care of our yeast, nurturing it, and being paid for it in the form of a good buzz. We are slaves to the yeast!Interesting idea Bo......, a few people would also consider marijuana to fit conveniently within this conceptual framework. Another thought along these lines might include the posibility that the cyber world itself will become a Superorganism of sorts. And that result might be accelerated if and when artificial intelligence ever becomes a reality......................Infy Boerseun 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.