Water: Where will it come from in 2050?

[SamSpeedo]

Long drought tween now an 2050, we'll be plenty thirsty. Course, global warming might kill most of us. They need clean water in Haiti now.

[Michaelangelica]

Long drought tween now an 2050, we'll be plenty thirsty. Course, global warming might kill most of us. They need clean water in Haiti now.

yes it is fairly essential stuff,

3+ days without water=:)

3+ weeks without food=:naughty:

 

The sheer scale of Haiti is terrifying. The Yanks need an Air drop like the relief of Berlin, but this does not even seem remotely, logistically possible.

I fear for the worst.

[maikeru]

yes it is fairly essential stuff,

3+ days without water=:phones:

3+ weeks without food=

 

The sheer scale of Haiti is terrifying. The Yanks need an Air drop like the relief of Berlin, but this does not even seem remotely, logistically possible.

I fear for the worst.

 

It's a bit difficult since the US is suffering from the worst recession/depression since the Great Depression and probably most of our troops are overseas. America's confused right now.

 

More on topic, I wanted to bring up something about air wells. These are supposed to be structures that can cool and condense water from the air in great enough amounts for drinking and other uses (and not require electrical or other energy for like cooling coils). Does anyone know if these really work all that well?

 

Air well (condenser) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Eclipse Now]

Thanks Michaelangelica, an important topic! I'm thinking drinking & household water can be desalinated but has anyone seen the enormous water use for growing our food? What, Sydney's water use is something like 8% of the State's water use simply because it takes so much more water to grow the food per person than it does to give them drinking & washing water.

 

So I'm guessing super-water-and-nutrient efficient skyfarms might become a source of local water, nutrient, and food security in the future.

 

 

 

 

We would need better agricultural techniques to prevent fertilizer and pesticide run-off, manufacturing and industrial protocols in place, etc. That would be a good start.

 

Also, I'm against the idea of using nuclear power to provide cheap energy to desalinate water which was mentioned in another post. I live in a western state of the US where politicians want to bury nuclear waste. Our state has a fast growing population and the scenery here is breathtaking and quite a bit of it is still unspoiled. Why would we want to contaminate the ground and put countless future generations at risk? Why do they want our deserts, mountains, and forests to glow at night? Surely, there must be a better way.

 

There is no nuclear waste problem if we build Gen3 (and the soon to be developed Gen4) nuclear reactors. Gen3 turns old generation nuclear waste into nuclear fuel. Indeed, the current stocks of 'waste' could run the entire world's energy systems for 700 years! After 're-burning' it the waste is reduced to 10% of the mass, and is so 'hot' that it burns itself out back to safe levels within just 500 years.

 

Know of any 500 year old buildings? :phones: What waste problem?

 

Indeed, even if the rest of the world could run on economically competitive renewable energy I'd still be willing for some of our money to go into Gen3 nuclear just to deal with the problem of existing waste from old reactors for the sake of our grandchildren's granchildren's grandchildren. If we got busy now, we could start reprocessing all this old waste and get some good Co2 free energy in the process.

 

But the water issue? I'm guessing our sewerage will be reprocessed not just for water, but because the world is rapidly approaching peak phosphorus.

This is an IMPORTANT TOPIC! Thanks for bringing it up guys and gals!

[Eclipse Now]

Air well (condenser) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Thanks for sharing the air-well idea... are you a wikipedia editor? It might be possible to get an idea out there to actual air-well developers... there's a new nano-particle surface that can refract heat in a different way, cooling the surface... I don't quite understand the physics but if it can do what I think it does, it could be an IDEAL way to increase the effectiveness of these air-wells you've mentioned.

[maikeru]

Thanks Michaelangelica, an important topic! I'm thinking drinking & household water can be desalinated but has anyone seen the enormous water use for growing our food? What, Sydney's water use is something like 8% of the State's water use simply because it takes so much more water to grow the food per person than it does to give them drinking & washing water.

 

So I'm guessing super-water-and-nutrient efficient skyfarms might become a source of local water, nutrient, and food security in the future.

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is no nuclear waste problem if we build Gen3 (and the soon to be developed Gen4) nuclear reactors. Gen3 turns old generation nuclear waste into nuclear fuel. Indeed, the current stocks of 'waste' could run the entire world's energy systems for 700 years! After 're-burning' it the waste is reduced to 10% of the mass, and is so 'hot' that it burns itself out back to safe levels within just 500 years.

 

Know of any 500 year old buildings? :lightning What waste problem?

 

Indeed, even if the rest of the world could run on economically competitive renewable energy I'd still be willing for some of our money to go into Gen3 nuclear just to deal with the problem of existing waste from old reactors for the sake of our grandchildren's granchildren's grandchildren. If we got busy now, we could start reprocessing all this old waste and get some good Co2 free energy in the process.

 

But the water issue? I'm guessing our sewerage will be reprocessed not just for water, but because the world is rapidly approaching peak phosphorus.

This is an IMPORTANT TOPIC! Thanks for bringing it up guys and gals!

 

I think I mentioned in one of my posts a while back that the idea of Gen 3 and 4 reactors are very interesting and promising. (Because who doesn't like the idea of recycling and destroying nuclear waste at the same time?) Usually when I think people are discussing using nuclear power to desalinate water, they're thinking more conventional reactors. I believe current nuclear reactors require quite a bit of water for cooling, so water shortages or droughts could affect energy production in that way.

 

Drought could close nuclear power plants - Weather- msnbc.com

 

Whatever we do, we need more clean and fresh water and we also need to reduce our nuclear waste.

 

Peak Phosphorus is going to require some major attention soon. There's something really perverse with knowing that most of it is washed or flushed away.

[maikeru]

Thanks for sharing the air-well idea... are you a wikipedia editor? It might be possible to get an idea out there to actual air-well developers... there's a new nano-particle surface that can refract heat in a different way, cooling the surface... I don't quite understand the physics but if it can do what I think it does, it could be an IDEAL way to increase the effectiveness of these air-wells you've mentioned.

 

I wish I was. I ran across them while looking for water conservation and irrigation techniques for dryland and desert farming. But it does give me a lot of ideas, in particular if an air-well or atmospheric water condenser is run from alternative energy sources. However, I don't have an engineering background. It's rather surprising to realize that there's virtually an ocean in the air around us.

[Eclipse Now]

Seawater Greenhouse... extrapolations on a future for African food from the Sahara.

 

The Seawater Greenhouse concept continues to intrigue me. They are using a Greenhouse, which is very efficient with water & humidity, and seawater to humidify the air, and sunlight to evaporate it and provide condensation, and pumped deep *cold* seawater to super-condense the moisture in the air onto desired cooler collection surfaces.

 

It's clever desal via cheaper pumping than pumping through a membrane or evaporating, the 2 main methods in conventional desal. Also, growing food in greenhouses is more water efficient than normal agriculture.

 

I'm just guessing, but surely as the plants grow the water evaporates / transpires into the greenhouse environment and eventually condenses on the glass ceiling with the cool desert night air?

 

Greenhouse in desert = Far less water lost!

 

now lets dream, as, being an idealist, I'm won't to do. Remember, I dream of terraforming Mars, let alone terraforming the Sahara!

 

 

 

= Power + Water & Food (from seawater!)

= economic incentives to create Saharan desert Ecocities nearby

= extra viable real estate + money capital flowing into Africa

= economic incentives to fund political stability.

 

Combined with biochar schemes and the inevitable local (eco)city sewerage nutrients, then these greenhouses could be the key to greening Africa's deserts and meeting the needs of a hypothetical 1.5 billion Africans in the future?

 

World’s Largest Solar Project Planned for Saharan Desert | Inhabitat

 

Sahara Forest Project Converts Desert into Oasis | Inhabitat

 

Note the "Seawater Greenhouses" flowing around the circular solar thermal plant

[Eclipse Now]

OK, now here's a REALLY seriously amazing idea for greening the Sahara at least. What's 10% of one big river to potentially grow entire new forests and farmlands across the Sahara and reinvent much of Northern Africa's economy? There's PLENTY of desert there, much of which is anthropogenic. There's PLENTY of space to save heaps as natural parks for desert biodiversity and still have unimaginably large areas for solar power schemes, Seawater Greenhouses, Water Roads, and even this scheme: move The Lualaba River via 300km of tunnel through mountains to lake Chad!

 

A Place to Stand: BIG ENGINEERING 9 - GREENING THE SAHARA

[Eclipse Now]

This page has the energy costs of pumping water, and concludes that it is cheap enough to consider China's deserts, African deserts, and anywhere we want... and interestingly backs the Seawater Greenhouse idea for desal & food.

[engineman]

where will all the water come from?

 

The smart answer is the Seawater greenhouse which creates food and drinking water and nutrients from sea water using solar energ to evaporate the water.

This is a scientifically and economically sound concept - check it out at:

"Pumping Power calculator – what power is needed to pump seawater to the middle of the Gobi Desert for desalination in the SeaWater Greenhouse? – answer – not a lot "

Pipe Headloss & Power calculator - calculate how much energy to pump seawater to the middle of the Sahara or Gobi Desert for desalination in the SeaWater Greenhouse - answer not a lot. | Claverton Group

 

Also check out ADRECs a method of converting large deserts to lush food and water producing areas.

 

http://www.claverton-energy.com/how-to-rapidly-convert-the-central-deserts-of-china-to-agricultural-regions-producing-huge-amounts-of-renewable-energy-for-europe.html

 

 

enginemand

[Michaelangelica]

Illustration of greenhouses having a similar effect on the climate as a region of forest, yet providing a net input of water vapour from the sea.

Like this?

What does a Seawater Greenhouse do?

The Seawater Greenhouse was designed to address the problem of irrigating crops in arid coastal regions by evaporating seawater and condensing it into fresh water.

http://forums.permaculture.org.au/showthread.php?4896-How-can-the-Murray-Darling-System-be-saved-for-ever/page2&highlight=murray+darling+saved

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/09 ... roject.php

 

http://www.seawatergreenhouse.com/introduction.html

 

or like this?

http://www.ileonardo.com/notebook/632556_/Water#p65

I like this idea.

ISTM that you could combine the engineering of a Roman Aqueduct with a big greenhouse and get some serious water moving inland. In Australia 1/6 of the continent is watered by the dying Murray Darling River. It does come 'close" to the E seaboard but there is a small, not high, mountain range in the way.

http://forums.permaculture.org.au/showthread.php?4896-How-can-the-Murray-Darling-System-be-saved-for-ever&p=53828#post53828

[Eclipse Now]

Yes, remember the link between forests and increased rainfall as well... some particle they emit... I forget the name of it, actually helps the droplets form.

[Michaelangelica]

15 December 2009

California water use 'not sustainable'

 

Satellite imagery has revealed the full extent of the unsustainable water use in California for the first time.

 

The data released yesterday (December 14) by the North American Space Agency (NASA) paints a bleak picture for the state, which has suffered a drought for the past three years.

 

The University of California Irvine has looked at the data and found a water use is draining the vast underground pools used to supply farmers, towns and cities across the state.

 

This is because the underground pools have been 'aggressively' agriculturally pumped by famers.

web4water: California water use 'not sustainable'

 

Australian government finds further $270m for Murray-Darling water

 

 

The Australian government has announced plans to buy back more water from farms throughout the parched Murray-Darling river basin.

 

Under Australian law, many farms and other businesses have abstraction rights allowing them to use a specified volume from the water table.

 

The country's federal government has adopted a plan of buying back these rights as part of an ongoing programme to avert further drought.

 

This week, Acting Minister for Water, Peter Garrett, announced a further AU$270m of funding for the project.

web4water: Australian government finds further $270m for Murray-Darling water

[Eclipse Now]

Sounds like more than Africa will need these Seawater Greenhouses. The beautiful thing about the greenhouses for Africa is that they cut out some of the heat, allowing cooler growing conditions inside (after all, they are in the middle of the desert), yet are still more than hot enough to allow the evaporation which creates all the freshwater from the seawater.

 

Creating 5 times the water needed to grow the food inside the greenhouse, it creates the possibility of irrigating the land outside the greenhouse.

[maikeru]

Yes, remember the link between forests and increased rainfall as well... some particle they emit... I forget the name of it, actually helps the droplets form.

 

Potential Sources Of 'Rain-Making' Bacteria In The Atmosphere Identified

 

One major biological particle appears to be Pseudomonas syringae, which is a common plant pathogen.

 

Pseudomonas syringae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

It wouldn't seem to stretch the truth too much that forests can be considered "factories" for the manufacture and release of these biological particles, whether they be bacteria, fungi, spores, etc., and combined with the effects of evaporation and transpiration, which might all help to encourage the formation of rain?

[skittlesmonkey]

water will definitely become an important commodity but really the most important tool in conservation, dont use it unless u have to and in the future you will pay the price on your bill. otherwise desalinization plats, advanced filtering techniques will do fine for a while. hon Cong has sever interesting projects going such as catching of rain water or water directly from sewage. chemically save but really a question of what compromises you willing to make.