Why There Most Certainly Is No God

[InfiniteNow]

What is emotion?

The quick answer is... off topic. :esmoking:

[phoenixbyrd]

That's funny, Yahweh did refer to himself as the first and the last in Isaiah 41,44,48 and Revelations 1,21,22. And why do you assume that the ZSON that no one can see is inanimate? (Exodus 33:20) I'm afraid I might find your ZSON intriguingly compatible with scripture.

 

Except there is no such thing as a 'zero singularity of nothing'. At which point, I also agree, it is compatible with there being no god.

 

Christianity is a hodgepodge. You couldn't have picked a more difficult (or irrelevant) construct to disassemble. Maybe you mean to attack the God of Abraham, or Hebrew scriptures in general.

 

He did in fact state "I use Christians here only because it is the most popular denomination".

 

Me thinks time is a property of creation, not vice versa. Einstein agrees.

 

Time is illusory. There is no such thing as time. You can't just apply an arbitary set of numbers and put those numbers in motion and call it time. Which is what we humans have chosen to do. It's sorta like saying there's a god who created the universe.

 

The other heavenly beings are also eternal according to Hebrew scripture. And again you must be referring to the God of Abraham. Think Judaism. Christianity tends toward the pagan polytheism, i.e. Trinity.

 

Considering christianity was most certainly formed around a pagan polytheistic belief, this is no surprise. But again, he did state his reason's for choosing christianity.

 

Define perfect. By my definition of perfection, creation as an act of kindness would not be unreasonable.

 

Kindness is not perfection.

 

Perfect: being complete of its kind and without defect or blemish

 

"And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." -- Genesis 1:31 asv

 

Unfortunatly god doesn't watch CNN. A perfect just god who find's murder, death, and gay priest raping little alter boys as GOOD, is not a god I wish to worship. But that's just me of course.

 

Hence the reward later: resurrection, eternal life, and what-not. A infinite reward for a finite tribulation, to use your phraseology.

 

So an eternity in hell as punishment isn't REALLY an eternity in hell after all? Or perhaps humans don't use the same definition of eternity as god does?

 

Unscriptural.

 

Unscriptural my ***. Are we next going to say that stoning your children and slavery being A-OK with god is also unscriptural? I may not believe in any invisible supernatural almighty daddy in the sky type folks, but atleast I know enough that he has condemned humans, as well as good 'ol satan there to an eternity in hell for, as the original poster put it... finite sins.

 

1) Just as affording us all a mind and the freewill to do as we please is an act of kindness, so to is recommending certain behaviors over others an act of kindness.

 

Free will, like time is illusory. There is NO SUCH THING as freewill. A concept not many people are able to grasp their feeble minds around. I mean, ffs.. we still have religion, so it's no surprise that people can't or won't accept something so obvious.

 

Kindness is in all reality not real either. There is no such thing as good or bad. It varies from individual to individual. Life isn't some complicated unknowable boogeyman, and I just can't understand why people make it sound so damned complex. It's like I'm living in barbaric time. Like I was born before man got a damned clue.

 

4) Seek and ye shall find...

 

It's a two way street. If you want there to be an invisible almighty supernatural daddy in the sky, then you WILL find him. But then again, it's all in your head. Why do we put people in jail who claimed god told them to kill someone?

 

 

 

{skip through bunch of unfounded uneducated garbage]

 

Horseshit. It simply means he can know the final result of what he chooses to do before he actually carries it out. It also means he knows the totality of other possible choices and their final outcomes as well so as to always make the best choice.

 

It saddens me that you posted that and never once noticed the pure idiocy in this statement. Honestly, it really does.

 

1) If you say so, and

 

In a sense, he is RIGHT.

 

2) you assume that God is subject to time rather than vice versa.

 

As time is illusory the whole argument is moot.

 

Love, kindness, loyalty and companionship are not subject to force. Doing things by force can be equated with warmongering, genocide, and tyranny, and therefore are not applicable to my sense of perfection.

 

And yet, creating an imperfect species to endure suffering in life only to be rewarded for such suffering in death is considered as perfect and kind? You are a very conflicted little man.

 

You say God can make good things happen, I disagree. I say good is only good because bad was an option. Otherwise what makes it good? Good is only commendable because bad is easy. You cheer more at the football game when the impossible pass is made than you do for the turnover punt.

 

As good and bad do not exist in reality, then I'd have to disagree with you there. Let's suppose that god does exist and can create anything his will chooses. What your doing is imposing LIMITS on his will and ability to create. Can you say highway to hell? I mean, honestly... who the hell are you to impose limits on an all powerful deity?

 

@Southtown

 

The existence of a spiritual realm or being is not completely unlikely just because it can't be directly evidenced via a certain scientific method.

 

It is very unlikely. When you unplug your computer, it ceases to function. When your hard drive is taken apart and recycled, it's contents do not continue to exist in some other form. Your brain is like the computer and hard drive. Once it's gone man... it's friggin gone.

 

It sucks. I know. But deluding onself to think that our slightly more advanced biocomputers are somehow better and more magical then our silicone one's are is just... sickening.

[phoenixbyrd]

what is emotion..

 

In psychology and common use, emotion is the language of a person's mental state of being, normally based in or tied to the person's internal (physical) and external (social) sensory feeling. Love, hate, courage, fear, joy, sadness, pleasure and disgust can all be described in both psychological and physiological terms. ...

 

heck, there's some pretty good AI programs out there that can be considered 'emotional'. Your biocomputer is just better at it.

[Southtown]

The quick answer is... off topic.

What can I say? Crafty.

[BibleBeliever]

Time is illusory. There is no such thing as time. You can't just apply an arbitary set of numbers and put those numbers in motion and call it time. Which is what we humans have chosen to do. It's sorta like saying there's a god who created the universe. .

So shall I chuck my watch away and use your comment as an excuse when I'm late for work? yeh right!

 

 

 

Considering christianity was most certainly formed around a pagan polytheistic belief, this is no surprise. But again, he did state his reason's for choosing christianity.

 

you know little about history to make a comment like this

 

 

 

Unfortunatly god doesn't watch CNN. A perfect just god who find's murder, death, and gay priest raping little alter boys as GOOD, is not a god I wish to worship. But that's just me of course.

 

you do err, after God created everything good, We went and spoilt it, have you read Genesis 1-3?

 

Unscriptural my ***. Are we next going to say that stoning your children and slavery being A-OK with god is also unscriptural? I may not believe in any invisible supernatural almighty daddy in the sky type folks, but atleast I know enough that he has condemned humans, as well as good 'ol satan there to an eternity in hell for, as the original poster put it... finite sins.

 

This shows that you do not understand what the bible says about God or why he must punish our rebellion against Him

 

Free will, like time is illusory. There is NO SUCH THING as freewill. A concept not many people are able to grasp their feeble minds around. I mean, ffs.. we still have religion, so it's no surprise that people can't or won't accept something so obvious.

 

No free will? so when you go on a killing spree in your local school will that be your defense?

 

Kindness is in all reality not real either. There is no such thing as good or bad. It varies from individual to individual. Life isn't some complicated unknowable boogeyman, and I just can't understand why people make it sound so damned complex. It's like I'm living in barbaric time. Like I was born before man got a damned clue.

 

no such thing as good or bad? then your above comment about "Unfortunatly god doesn't watch CNN. A perfect just god who find's murder, death, and gay priest raping little alter boys as GOOD, is not a god I wish to worship. But that's just me of course." is irrelevant

 

 

It saddens me that you posted that and never once noticed the pure idiocy in this statement. Honestly, it really does.

methinks it was a valid comment, that you don't understand it or accept it doesn't make it idiotic.

 

 

And yet, creating an imperfect species to endure suffering in life only to be rewarded for such suffering in death is considered as perfect and kind? You are a very conflicted little man.

no you are ignorant of what the bible tells us about God and what He has done to get us out of the problems we've brought upon ourselves.

 

 

As good and bad do not exist in reality, then I'd have to disagree with you there. Let's suppose that god does exist and can create anything his will chooses. What your doing is imposing LIMITS on his will and ability to create. Can you say highway to hell? I mean, honestly... who the hell are you to impose limits on an all powerful deity?

God limits or more properly Defines Himself, He is God, who are you to say what He can and cannot do?

 

@Southtown

 

It is very unlikely. When you unplug your computer, it ceases to function. When your hard drive is taken apart and recycled, it's contents do not continue to exist in some other form. Your brain is like the computer and hard drive. Once it's gone man... it's friggin gone.

 

It sucks. I know. But deluding onself to think that our slightly more advanced biocomputers are somehow better and more magical then our silicone one's are is just... sickening.

to answer this I will use your own statement; "It saddens me that you posted that and never once noticed the pure idiocy in this statement. Honestly, it really does."

[Lancaster]

BibleBeliever, can you elaborate on what you are saying a little more? Simply saying that someone does not understand the Bible does not mean that what they are saying is wrong.

 

He is correct that many Christian rituals (eating flesh, drinking blood, worship on Sunday, etc.) were inherited from pagan beliefs. Don't just say that phoenixbyrd doesn't know history, explain what is wrong and cite some sources (which he should do as well).

 

"The Bible says this" is not a very valid way to rebuke an argument. Just state your opinion a little better and I will be happy to prove it incorrect. :D

[BibleBeliever]

BibleBeliever, can you elaborate on what you are saying a little more? Simply saying that someone does not understand the Bible does not mean that what they are saying is wrong.

 

He is correct that many Christian rituals (eating flesh, drinking blood, worship on Sunday, etc.) were inherited from pagan beliefs. Don't just say that phoenixbyrd doesn't know history, explain what is wrong and cite some sources (which he should do as well).

 

"The Bible says this" is not a very valid way to rebuke an argument. Just state your opinion a little better and I will be happy to prove it incorrect. :D

 

Christians eating flesh? drinking blood? worshipping on a Sunday? what verse is that? Are you suggesting Jesus telling us to remember what He did for us by taking what we call holy communion comes from pagans eating flesh and drinking blood? the things Jesus said and did are seen in the old testament, they were ordaned from God as given to Moses on Mt Sinai, if the pagans were doing this before then, so what? Phoenixbyrd said 'Considering christianity was most certainly formed around a pagan polytheistic belief' I can show where it's foundation is written in the bible, where does he get his information from?

 

The bible says a lot of things, eg. it talks about adultary (King David did this and he was refered to as ' a man after God's own heart') but that doesn't mean God alows it, David suffered a lot because of the wrong things he did.

We can't pick some bits of the bible and ignore other bits, it's all or nothing. By not reading it all in context means it's often misquoted and misunderstood. Pick a specific example of a 'contradiction' or 'inconsistency' and we'll deal with them one at a time, just to claim there's hundreds of examples (as seen in other threads of this type) is elephant hurling, I could say the same thing about evolution.

 

Again, don't ask me to eat the whole elephant, throw me a chunk at a time. If you really want answers they are available.

[arkain101]

I've been skimming through.. and I just wanted to note to people involved in this thread.

 

Face it, if you want to debunk something you have to learn and understand what your trying to dis prove in order to have an opinion that accomplishes something.

 

Its like saying a type of food is gross and not worth eating when you know nothing about its properties, and have never tasted it.

 

Much of history is written and influenced by biblical script. That alone makes it worth understanding if you want to get into the topic.

 

It isnt good science to jump to conclusions in any aspect of study, and what does it accomplish to judge people on beleif?

 

My suggestion in life is learn and enjoy and share the enthusiam of understanding.

[phoenixbyrd]

BibleBelieverI can show where it's foundation is written in the bible, where does he get his information from?

 

Weeee!!! Your right, the bible does give it's account of it's own history. But... It's flipping WRONG. I get my information by learning as much as I can. I have a post from another site on religion, where it came from etc. Saved it, so maybe I'll start a new thread here, refine it abit with some new things I've learned and whatnot.

 

arkain101Much of history is written and influenced by biblical script. That alone makes it worth understanding if you want to get into the topic.

 

I disagree. See, I HAVE taken the time to learn abit about religion and it's roots. I've gone far back beyond the bible and what influenced IT. Once upon a time in ancient egypt... It also takes alot more then just learning about religion in and of itself. It's about beliefs of certain time periods, genetics, parenting etc. People really gotta grasp or atleast grasp just enough of everything, not just stop at the bible and consider that as history. FFS, it can even be seen as to go back as far as before we even had any language. But, that's where the genetics aspect of it begins. Kinda iffy area there. Don't want to say that was THE birth of religion, but it sure as hell did kick start it.

[phoenixbyrd]

BibleBelieverBy not reading it all in context means it's often misquoted and misunderstood.

 

Heh, you mean like the virgin mother??? Brush up on your hebrew 'of that time period' buckaroo.

[arkain101]

I disagree. See, I HAVE taken the time to learn abit about religion and it's roots. I've gone far back beyond the bible and what influenced IT.

Although I probably didint word it right;

My point was that it has influenced history, there must be something worth looking into if it effects wars and life. Aand if you want to discuss it, yes you need to learn about it.

 

It seems you are supporting what I as trying to convey.. let me know if I am wrong.

[phoenixbyrd]

Face it, if you want to debunk something you have to learn and understand what your trying to dis prove in order to have an opinion that accomplishes something.

 

And that's what I'm saying too in a way. I've already and still continue to learn as much as I can about religion and where it's come from. I can tell you with 110% certainty that there is no god of any kind and that it is nothing more then a primitive superstition that has existed up till present day in various forms. Learning about which religion came from where, who played major influences and what influenced them, etc, will help people immensly here.

 

Its like saying a type of food is gross and not worth eating when you know nothing about its properties, and have never tasted it.

 

And yet it's perfectly acceptable for people to banter on and on about some invisible deity who've they've never seen nor personally experienced in the real world? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[arkain101]

Everything is a bantering of some sort. One day its this the next day its that. We learn more about life and it changes what we refer to things as.

 

Likely though, we will never describe where anything comes from, we will just explain whats already here.

 

Some people use sports for well being, some people use subtances, and others find well being in putting an answer on the void.

 

Everyone has a right to their own thoughts. I don't agree though that people have a right to act out all thoughts.

 

When you say people bantering on about something invisible, who are you refering to that frustrates you?

 

Politicians banter on all the time about a campaign that is an invisible diety who no ones ever seen or will personally experience in the real world. (lol)

 

Or is it preachers who collect money by using you will burn in hell if you don't come to my church and donate your money.

[phoenixbyrd]

Nice way to hang on the word banter and kill it. Should've used a gun and done it quick, not beat it to death with a stick!

 

As I said, you can't have your cake and eat it to.

 

In other words, using your very own example of food, just as you can't say a certain food is gross if you've never tried it, you also can't say any old arbitrary thing exist's and created the universe if you have no proof that such a thing exist's.

 

If that were allowable, then ANYTHING must be true. Not just god, but ANYTHING I or you or anyone says that created the universe. Now obviously that CAN'T be true.

 

You can not have your cake and eat it to. Doesn't work like that.

[Agememnon]

Christians eating flesh? drinking blood? worshipping on a Sunday? what verse is that?

 

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink

his blood, you have no life in you” (John 6:53)

 

"My flesh is real food; My blood is true drink," John 6: continuous motif.

 

These are what you are looking for, no?

 

 

The bible says a lot of things, eg. it talks about adultary (King David did this and he was refered to as ' a man after God's own heart') but that doesn't mean God alows it, David suffered a lot because of the wrong things he did.

We can't pick some bits of the bible and ignore other bits, it's all or nothing. By not reading it all in context means it's often misquoted and misunderstood.

 

Then, he says:

 

Pick a specific example of a 'contradiction' or 'inconsistency' and we'll deal with them one at a time...

 

 

Wait a second...you just said that you can't do that! Are you trying to play us for fools, sir?

 

I share Lancaster's excitement for the destruction of faith. Not much is gained from its existence and much is lost from its continuation. (I say "not much" because there are some pretty cool stories from the bible. Little fairy tales that I like to read every now and then. Also, the Leviathan! As found in Job.)

 

 

Another thing...what in the world is this little guy doin'?:cocktail: I can't seem to find a useful place for him in any conversation!

[arkain101]

I share Lancaster's excitement for the destruction of faith. Not much is gained from its existence and much is lost from its continuation.

By looking at this quote, and others similar to it;

 

It sounds to me like whats being said between the lines here by some is a viewpoint looking downward on people that arent in their catagory of the liked kind.

 

A destruction of faith doesnt destruct people you don't like. It also does not solve problems that exist that we are not fond of.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but there are several people in your (agamemnon and those that agree with him) catagory of 'good straight up people' that have beleifs you do not know of or about, and/or, have beleifs that you know of thatare in the faithful direction.

 

What seems more important here is a type of people that are in a good catagory and a bad catagory, and the words of faith and religion are being used in place of bad unliked people.

 

Horrendous events have come from many places and not one catagory of beleifs can be summed up as the responsible sector for the broad area of those events. School shootings, terrorist attacks, workers gone postal, murders, war, and the like.

 

What I suggest and this is my opinion, is to put that emotional ajenda aside that lables and catagorizes people when having a discussion in the detailed aspects of religion and other ideals and focus on the details of the topic.

 

And as for people that are like and disliked can be put into a different topic and secondly the mask of a label should also be removed if and when getting into that topic.

 

 

I was doing some reading on in this area of religion and mythology and something struck me that seemed quite true.

 

Religion is a mythology in action, being currently lived and acted out by people. When the religion is no longer practiced, and its support of beleif and faith has dwindled away, it becomes rather like a mythology.

 

And mythologies alone are an expression of simple fundamental basic truths that humanity has expressed over and over in different forms to try and put voice and illustration on the very thing that they can not see nor explain, but conclude that all reality eminates from.

[BibleBeliever]

Heh, you mean like the virgin mother??? Brush up on your hebrew 'of that time period' buckaroo.

 

What, are you refering to this issue?...

 

‘Fellow Jews early on challenged Matthew’s Gospel assertion that it fulfilled a prophecy in the book of Isaiah that the Messiah would be born to a “virgin”. (Isaiah’s Hebrew actually talks about a “young girl”; Matthew was probably working from a Greek mistranslation).’ (Time) In fact, Matthew was working from the accepted Greek translation of the day, the Septuagint (LXX). The translators (72 rabbis, 6 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, according to legend, hence the name from Latin Septuaginta = 70) who prepared the LXX probably knew what they were doing when they translated ‘almah into parthenos, from which we get the word parthenogenesis. Note that they did so about 250 years before christ was born, so they can’t be accused of being influenced by Christianity. Fact is, no Jews complained about the translation ‘parthenos’ until Matthew applied it to Christ. And the LXX translators were perfectly justified, since ‘almah is never used of a non-virgin in the Old Testament. And no one explained why the pregnancy of a ‘young girl’ should be a sign—it happens all the time!

 

This is a part of an article found on Answers in Genesis - Creation, Evolution, Christian Apologetics.

 

 

Phoenixbyrd wrote...

And yet it's perfectly acceptable for people to banter on and on about some invisible deity who've they've never seen nor personally experienced in the real world? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

Who's to say people haven't experienced God in the real world. I have, I can't prove that anymore than I can prove I love my dead children. But you telling me I'm off my rocker doesn't stop me knowing what I've experienced.

You are 110% convinced that God doesn't exist? Fine, why rage on about it, I'm 100% convinced He does, I've speek to Him and He's replied on numerous occasions. Do I rage on against athiests because I believe their wrong? No. But if someone askes a question I'm willing to answer it if I can. If someone states something that I know to be untrue, I will put forward my opinion. Whether or not you believe me is of no consequence.

 

Phoenixbyrd wrote...the bible does give it's account of it's own history. But... It's flipping WRONG.

 

Well educate us then, where is this infromation so we can look at it critically

 

 

Agememnon wrote

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink

his blood, you have no life in you” (John 6:53)

 

"My flesh is real food; My blood is true drink," John 6: continuous motif.

 

These are what you are looking for, no?

 

I think the difference is Jesus was pointing to the bread and wine not literal flesh and blood. The flesh and blood bit (in the literal sense) came on the Cross, we take part in that by being baptised into the death of Christ. (Galatians 3:27)

 

I'm not saying this subject is easy to understand, but the original post said that Christianity got it's ideas from paganism. I was pointing out that (even though the author of that statement didn't give us a reference for his information) the bible clearly shows that blood is used to remove the imminent wrath of God (Exodus 12, Matthew 26:28 and other verses) to say it's from a pagan ritual is valueless, God shows why we do it, the fact that others do it or dit it before is not an issue.

 

And the thing about picking bit's out of the bible, I mean you pick a bit out that you think contradicts another bit and I'll try to show you that when you put it into context of the whole bible it no longer can be seen as a contradiction.

 

Can I just make a point of view here, I've read a lot of posts on this site and I find people make wide statements and comments that are not backed up by any resourses, I thought Scientists and those looking for the truth would have a good look at many sides, The impression I get is that some people want to believe what they want and just throw off any counter arguments, to me those people are not worth debating with as they have chosen their path and are happy with it, that's ok, some may say that I am that kind of person too, I have, however, logged onto this site just for the reason of seeing how the athiest / agnostic / evolution anti-creationist thinks. I use this information to look at my own beliefs and they do show up areas where I need to research more. I haven't yet found anyone with a valid counter argument to the views that I have (that have been represented in other threads by people in the past), not one that has shaken my faith yet.

I'll keep looking, I'm sure there are people out there, the ones who want to rid the world of religion in all it's forms, will keep posting good and valid points, but I wish they would look into them a bit first, to see how easy it is to refute them.