Why There Most Certainly Is No God

[BibleBeliever]

I'm sorry phoenyxbyrd, you write a lot of words but not much sense. I guess I'm just dumb.

 

You refer to Christian history but you fail to recognise that there are now and have been thousands who take on the name of Christ and mis-use the bible for their own destructive ends. These are not following the teaching of Jesus and to say I am like them is shame on me because I must have come across a some sort of judgemental bigot for want of a better description.

 

I guess your views come from a basic presuposition that we started off as grunting cave men and we've achieved our present level of sophistication through questioning. I submit that we are actually going backwards. I think the people of a few thousand years ago were more intelligent than we are, though we have more knowledge, and the principles that they built great civilisations on we are systematically throwing away because they question God.

 

Have you heard of Madaline Murray O'Hair? she wanted prayer and God out of schools, when she got her wish guess what? STD rates, teen suicides, teen violence, teen abortion all went up. That's progress?

 

Compared to William Wilberforce (1759-1833) He became a Christian after getting elected to Parliament in 1780 and fought to bring an end to the slave trade and then to abolish slavery in the British empire and it's colonies (1807) I wonder if he alowed people to make their own desisions?

 

You may as well start the mockery now sir...

[phoenixbyrd]

You refer to Christian history but you fail to recognise that there are now and have been thousands who take on the name of Christ and mis-use the bible for their own destructive ends.

 

Christianity would not be here today if it weren't for those who 'misused' the bible.

 

I guess your views come from a basic presuposition that we started off as grunting cave men and we've achieved our present level of sophistication through questioning. I submit that we are actually going backwards. I think the people of a few thousand years ago were more intelligent than we are, though we have more knowledge, and the principles that they built great civilisations on we are systematically throwing away because they question God.

 

No, it's not a presuposition. Look back in your history books, even look back at early christians. They were primitive compared to today. How is that going backwards? How is learning more about our universe going backwards? Why throw logic, reason and education completley out the window in favor of invisible neked magical beings?

 

Those civilisations weren't great at all, do you even know anything about them, about the culture, the laws, their ways of life? They were barbaric compared to today. Honestly BB, please go learn about something. Anything. I'm not trying to be rude, but your spouting nonsensical drivel that lacks any truth.

 

Have you heard of Madaline Murray O'Hair? she wanted prayer and God out of schools, when she got her wish guess what? STD rates, teen suicides, teen violence, teen abortion all went up. That's progress?

 

Can you produce any verfiable evidence that this is all a result of taking prayer out of school. I've tried running a search, but found no results linking an increase in STD and etc. with lack of prayer in public school systems.

 

Compared to William Wilberforce (1759-1833) He became a Christian after getting elected to Parliament in 1780 and fought to bring an end to the slave trade and then to abolish slavery in the British empire and it's colonies (1807) I wonder if he alowed people to make their own desisions?

 

 

Kudos for his failed attempt. But if memory serves me correct, it was Abraham Lincoln who succesfully abolished slavery who was anti-christian and an atheist.

[imaplanck.]

Christianity would not be here today if it weren't for those who 'misused' the bible.

 

.

 

.....The downside of that eventuality, being............?

[Lancaster]

I guess your views come from a basic presuposition that we started off as grunting cave men and we've achieved our present level of sophistication through questioning. I submit that we are actually going backwards. I think the people of a few thousand years ago were more intelligent than we are, though we have more knowledge, and the principles that they built great civilisations on we are systematically throwing away because they question God.

 

 

How are you judging intelligence? There has yet to be an accurate test to determine intelligence, even the IQ test does not suffice. Are you saying that the people of thousands of years ago are more intelligent because of the ideas, such as those in the Bible that they presented? First of all, you are contradicting yourself. God gave them those principles, they did not think of them by themselves. It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to say "okay I'll do what you say" to an ultra-powerful being who has killed the entire world's population of humans before.

 

We are certainly throwing away the principals of God, for which I am thankful. The principals God presents in the Bible are terrible! Slavery, ruthless execution of prisoners, mass killings are all things that God condoned, and in some cases ordered.

 

And shouldn't all authority be questioned? We should be skeptical of anyone and anything that tells us how to live our lives. We should question science, culture, and most of all the idea that we should worship an all powerful being who contradicts known fact.

 

 

Have you heard of Madaline Murray O'Hair? she wanted prayer and God out of schools, when she got her wish guess what? STD rates, teen suicides, teen violence, teen abortion all went up. That's progress?

 

The likelihood of you finding a study that correlates the removal of prayer from school and increased STD rates, teen suicides, teen violence, teen abortion has to be around one in a million. And even if you did, I would question the findings of such a survey like there's no tomorrow.

 

And on a side note, God is still in schools. At my public high school we pledge ourselves to a nation under the power of God every day. I omit the foolish inclusion, which gets quite a reaction in the classroom. Probably because I say the pledge so loud, and then remain absolutely silent during the "under God." If you notice, doing this makes others lower their voices as well.

[BibleBeliever]

How are you judging intelligence? There has yet to be an accurate test to determine intelligence, even the IQ test does not suffice. Are you saying that the people of thousands of years ago are more intelligent because of the ideas, such as those in the Bible that they presented? First of all, you are contradicting yourself. God gave them those principles, they did not think of them by themselves. It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to say "okay I'll do what you say" to an ultra-powerful being who has killed the entire world's population of humans before.

 

We are certainly throwing away the principals of God, for which I am thankful. The principals God presents in the Bible are terrible! Slavery, ruthless execution of prisoners, mass killings are all things that God condoned, and in some cases ordered.

 

And shouldn't all authority be questioned? We should be skeptical of anyone and anything that tells us how to live our lives. We should question science, culture, and most of all the idea that we should worship an all powerful being who contradicts known fact.

 

 

Ok, let me ask is there any evidence for man being smarter now than say 200 years ago where we have a lot of documentation about what went on, what was written etc. Please note I stated that knowledge has increased, that's clear but has inteligence? I believe it hasn't I may not be able to prove that, (that's why I said I believe it) but can you show me I am wrong with data?

 

Yes God did give them those principles, we have the same principles today, but the smart ones live by them. those in the past that rejected God like we do today, their civilisations fell, all of them.

 

Which principles of God are terrible? love your enemies, give them food if they ask for it, love your wife, look after your kids, be careful what you eat, If you have a slave, treat him well, then you must set him free after 7 years (it doesn't say you should get a slave, just how to treat one if you have one). God ordered the destruction of many groups of people to keep his people pure, He doesn't tell us we can do it indescriminately and If I heard a voice telling me now that I should kill someone, I would know it wasn't God because He has dealt with that issue a long time ago.

 

The God of the Old testament is the same God as the one in the New, it's just that what was going on 4000 years ago, where He needed to deal harshly with a lot of people, was to ensure the survival of the Jewish people. so Messiah could come. When Jesus came He dealt with the old laws and rituals (not by getting rid of them but fulfilling them so they become redundant (that may not be the best word)), so in this day an age God won't ask us to kill homosexuals or stone people who commit adultary.

 

We should only question Mans authority because we see how power corrupts. God's authority is final, we can question it but to go against it is a bad idea.

 

quick example: If I buy a diesel car and decide to put gasoline in it because I chose to question the authority of the manufacturers, I am bringing destruction upon my self (the damage to the car) because I won't follow the makers instructions. It's the same with us. God gives us the instruction manual (the bible) and we chose to ignore it so STD's, family break ups, suicides, wars, religion, all the bad things in the world are caused by going against the laws in the bible.

 

Of course you can select the things in the past where people who used the bible wrongly to further their cause and say this shows the bible to be wrong, that's like me taking the breaks off my car because the maintanance manual says I should, but not replacing them and blaming the manual when I crash because I didn't read the next paragraph that told me to put them back on after renewing the pads. You can't say I don't agree with that bit so I'm going to ignore it all, even the Skeptic's bible shows some verses which it says it agrees with. Just cos you don't understand what's going on on one part shouldn't stop you from living the parts you do understand.

 

The bottom line is people don't want a God and they cirtainly don't want the God of the bible because it means they can't do what they want to do (free sex, drugs, killing babies because they're inconvenient) without having to pay for it. They chose religions which fit their lifestyles, or chose to reject God alltogether. Unfortunately us believing or not believing doesn't alter the truth. If we reject God, He will reject us. Matthew 10:33

[Agememnon]

And yes, of course I'm a Young Earth Creationist, that's what the bible says, about 6,500 years old. If you want to question that then I'll only be cutting and pasting my answers from the answersingenesis website, so spare us the effort and look up all the questions you want there. Though I guess you don't want answers, you just want to mock.

 

What? I thought you said that you know all this stuff? You shouldn't have to get someone else to explain it to us! You said you understand in all and that is why you are a Christian!

 

 

Next thing I want to point out is that you say this:

 

I don't agree with whatever Darwin wrote in the origin of the species, but I wouldn't want every copy burned.

 

1. Where in the WORLD did book burning come into the conversation?

2. How could you disagree with Darwin? You have never read it, or ever know, really, anything about it, as one of the other member pointed out!

 

 

The point of Christianity is to tell people the Truth, if you don't believe us, or don't like it, fine, we won't hate you, kill you or try to silence you if you speak out against us.

 

1. Crusades

2. Inquisition

 

Let them read the bible if they want, don't tell them what it says and what they should think.

 

So it's OK for you to tell them that it's true but not OK for us to tell them that it's false? Or is this do as I say, not as I do type of thing?

[Agememnon]

Ok, let me ask is there any evidence for man being smarter now than say 200 years ago where we have a lot of documentation about what went on, what was written etc. Please note I stated that knowledge has increased, that's clear but has inteligence?

 

Arguing with you is very frustrating. Please, for the love of God (lol), just answer the question that have been asked of you! You have ignored or forgotten or not understood questions like 5 or 6 times already in this thread!

 

LANCASTER asked you how you measure intelligence because there is no good way of doing so. IQ is only a recent idea and isn't even that good. How would you compare someone's intelligence to another's?

 

I believe it hasn't I may not be able to prove that, (that's why I said I believe it) but can you show me I am wrong with data?

 

Proof comes from the side of the affirmative, not from the side of doubt.

Do you not know how to debate properly, sir?

 

 

 

Yes, they did. Remind me again, because I forgot, which God fearing one survived again?

 

 

Which principles of God are terrible? love your enemies, give them food if they ask for it, love your wife, look after your kids, be careful what you eat. If you have a slave...

 

That one.

 

 

quick example: If I buy a diesel car and decide to put gasoline in it because I chose to question the authority of the manufacturers...

 

COME ON! That is NOT what it means to question authority! Seriously, dude, this is going nowhere.

 

...It's the same with us. God gives us the instruction manual (the bible) and we chose to ignore it so STD's, family break ups, suicides, wars, religion, all the bad things in the world are caused by going against the laws in the bible.

 

Well what do you know...IT WORKED! Good job men. Lets wrap this up and head home! (starts the "When Johnny Comes Marching Home" music)

 

 

...even the Skeptic's bible shows some verses which it says it agrees with...

 

Yeah, like the part about loving your neighbor.

 

If we reject God, He will reject us. Matthew 10:33

 

What about God never giving up? He loves us?

[BibleBeliever]

What? I thought you said that you know all this stuff? You shouldn't have to get someone else to explain it to us! You said you understand in all and that is why you are a Christian!

 

I said I'll cut and paste it to stop me having to write it out in my own words, and I don't know it all, that's why I'm on this site to see where my knowledge lacks and fill up the gaps with learning and study.

 

 

Next thing I want to point out is that you say this:

 

 

 

1. Where in the WORLD did book burning come into the conversation?

2. How could you disagree with Darwin? You have never read it, or ever know, really, anything about it, as one of the other member pointed out!

 

 

I was making a point, I believe in freedom of speech for everyone, even satanists, I disagree with people like Richard Dawkins who want to rid the world of us.

Many people disagree with the bible and have only read bits. I have read some things from the Origin of the Species, just not the whole thing. and as has been seen before, what I think it says is not what other people think it says so I'll bow to their superior knowledge and admit that I am deficient in this area. But I still disagree with the points Darwin makes that I understand correctly.

 

1. Crusades

2. Inquisition

 

Like I keep saying just because people do things in the name of the bible doesn't make the bible the instigator of the Crusades nor does it mean that the people who murdered and raped were Christians.

 

The Inquisition killed a lot of bible believing Christians because they wouldn't bow the knee to Rome (the Pope)

 

So it's OK for you to tell them that it's true but not OK for us to tell them that it's false? Or is this do as I say, not as I do type of thing?

 

I can tell them it's true, you can tell them it's false, but for you to tell them 'we'll tell you what's in it and where it's wrong, don't you go looking yourself' is wrong. It's keeping people from looking into it themselves that is bad not making comments about it. For example The Gideons put free bibles into hotels etc. some people want them to stop it. I want people to have access to the bible, and the Koran, the teaching of Bhudah etc. Many countries have tried to ban the bible, are you one of those people who want it off the bookshelves? As a Christian I have nothing against Muslims putting the Koran in a hotel room, as long as the bible has the same right to be there.

[Agememnon]

 

all the bad things in the world are caused by going against the laws in the bible.

 

 

WRONG In your book, there is a story about a man named Job. Job was perfect. He was crushed by "God". All the bad things in the world happened to Job. He did NOT go against the Bible. Mostly because it hadn't been made up yet. He lived according to "God's laws" and such, but "God" owned his *** anyway because, for some reason, he was having a proverbial pissing contest with "Satan"! He's "god" why did he have to prove anything to anyone?

[BibleBeliever]

Arguing with you is very frustrating. Please, for the love of God (lol), just answer the question that have been asked of you! You have ignored or forgotten or not understood questions like 5 or 6 times already in this thread!

 

yeh I know cos like you said it's going nowhere.

 

LANCASTER asked you how you measure intelligence because there is no good way of doing so. IQ is only a recent idea and isn't even that good. How would you compare someone's intelligence to another's?

 

 

 

Proof comes from the side of the affirmative, not from the side of doubt.

Do you not know how to debate properly, sir?

I don't want to debate it, I believe it, if I wanted to debate it I would have started a new thread with that as a subject. The originall point was to show Phoenyxbyrd that we have different starting points so we see things differently.

 

 

Yes, they did. Remind me again, because I forgot, which God fearing one survived again?

none of them were God fearing, history repeats itself, we don't learn.

 

That one.

you missed off the rest of what I said, Never in the bible are we told to make someone a slave

 

COME ON! That is NOT what it means to question authority! Seriously, dude, this is going nowhere.

well give me a simplistic example then

 

Well what do you know...IT WORKED! Good job men. Lets wrap this up and head home! (starts the "When Johnny Comes Marching Home" music)

Like I realised on another thread, religion is one thing to one and another thing to others, Jesus came to free us from religion, but we are still called 'religious' because we have faith. (my opinion in a nutshell :All Religion is man's attempt to get to God, Christianity is God's reaching out to us.) If you have an issue here there is another thread where it's being debated.

 

 

What about God never giving up? He loves us?

Genesis 6:3 disagrees with you there, and yes he loves us enough to warn us about what he's going to do with us if we carry on in our Godless ways

[Agememnon]

I was making a point, I believe in freedom of speech for everyone, even satanists...

 

Are they special or something?

 

I believe in freedom of speech for everyone, even Christians.

 

Many people disagree with the bible and have only read bits. I have read some things from the Origin of the Species, just not the whole thing.

 

Just because they do it makes it OK for you to do the same. I see how it is.

 

 

Like I keep saying just because people do things in the name of the bible doesn't make the bible the instigator of the Crusades...

 

Um...yes it does. Either the bible or the Pope but where did he get his ideas from? He didn't make them up! The people writing the Bible did that for him.

 

The Inquisition killed a lot of bible believing Christians because they wouldn't bow the knee to Rome (the Pope)

 

That just means that Christian's were killing each other! How sad. You see if there was no religion then we wouldn't have to worry about that!

 

 

 

I can tell them it's true, you can tell them it's false, but for you to tell them 'we'll tell you what's in it and where it's wrong, don't you go looking yourself' is wrong.

 

You're accusing us of doing that to you, aren't you?

 

 

are you one of those people who want it off the bookshelves? As a Christian I have nothing against Muslims putting the Koran in a hotel room, as long as the bible has the same right to be there.

 

No I like the little stories and wild fantasy of these religious texts. They are truly works or art in their own way! I will allow them to remain on the shelves.

 

I have a money saving proposition! Instead of filling the hotels with suffocating religion, how about we free up that nightstand table drawer by taking the book out! No religious books in the hotels how about that? There are simply way to many! All that fiction would give people headaches!

[BibleBeliever]

you assume Job's persecution was a bad thing, in the end it made him a better person and gave us all an example to follow. read Mark 10:30 and James 5:11

 

The problem here is how to define Bad, using the definition of bad as 'something we don't want or like' then what I said was false, but from God's perspective, what He doesn't want to happen is bad, then it's caused by not following the bible.

 

So God will allow 'Bad' things to happen to make us better people in the long run.

 

I don't think I explained that very well, It may be best if I retract my statement that 'all the bad things in the world are caused by going against the laws in the bible' and replace it with 'things go bad when we don't follow the instructions in the bible'

[Agememnon]

AAHAHAGAGAHAHGAHAGAHAGHHHGGGGG!!!!

 

YOU DID IT AGAIN!!!

 

Look here:

LANCASTER: How are you judging intelligence?

 

BB:"Ok, let me ask is there any evidence for man being smarter now than say 200 years ago where we have a lot of documentation about what went on, what was written etc. Please note I stated that knowledge has increased, that's clear but has inteligence? I believe it hasn't I may not be able to prove that, (that's why I said I believe it) but can you show me I am wrong with data?"

 

AGEMEMNON:??? Answer the question that LANCASTER proposed to you.

 

BB: I don't want to debate it, I believe it, if I wanted to debate it I would have started a new thread with that as a subject. The originall point was to show Phoenyxbyrd that we have different starting points so we see things differently.

 

AGEMEMNON ???

 

 

Do you not see the PROBLEM?

[Agememnon]

you assume Job's persecution was a bad thing, in the end it made him a better person and gave us all an example to follow. read Mark 10:30 and James 5:11

 

No it didn't. He got more stuff after "God" chewed him out! That doesn't make him a better person. He was perfect beforehand anyway! "God" punished him for no reason! Have you read the story?

 

Have you read about the Leviathan! Very cool monster-thing there. I never knew the bible had mythical creatures until I read this: FOR A GOOD TIME CALL: JOB at Ch. 40 and 41!

 

So God will allow 'Bad' things to happen to make us better people in the long run.

 

Like all those 10 year old mine sniffer children in Korea who have their limbs blown off? Yep. I can see the improvements.

 

Speaking of amputees has anyone been here:

 

http://WhyWontGodHealAmputees.com

 

I don't think I explained that very well, It may be best if I retract my statement that 'all the bad things in the world are caused by going against the laws in the bible' and replace it with 'things go bad when we don't follow the instructions in the bible'

 

No it was explained well, it's just wrong.

[BibleBeliever]

I was making a point, I believe in freedom of speech for everyone, even satanists...

 

Are they special or something?

just making a point

I believe in freedom of speech for everyone, even Christians.

 

 

Thanks;)

 

 

Just because they do it makes it OK for you to do the same. I see how it is.

 

 

No I'm saying you're telling me off for doing what others do, it's ok for them but not for me?

 

 

 

 

Um...yes it does. Either the bible or the Pope but where did he get his ideas from? He didn't make them up! The people writing the Bible did that for him.

 

 

So If I kill someone and say Darwin inspired me is that his fault?

 

 

That just means that Christian's were killing each other! How sad. You see if there was no religion then we wouldn't have to worry about that!

 

 

No you don't realise what a Christian is. Don't lump us all together just because we share a name, the bible says 'by their fruit ye shall know them'

 

 

You're accusing us of doing that to you, aren't you?

 

 

the point is we encourage people to study, you want to prevent it (that's why you wrote the last paragraph);

 

 

 

 

 

I have a money saving proposition! Instead of filling the hotels with suffocating religion, how about we free up that nightstand table drawer by taking the book out! /b]No religious books in the hotels how about that? There are simply way to many! All that fiction would give people headaches!

[BibleBeliever]

AAHAHAGAGAHAHGAHAGAHAGHHHGGGGG!!!!

 

YOU DID IT AGAIN!!!

 

Look here:

LANCASTER: How are you judging intelligence?

 

BB:"Ok, let me ask is there any evidence for man being smarter now than say 200 years ago where we have a lot of documentation about what went on, what was written etc. Please note I stated that knowledge has increased, that's clear but has inteligence? I believe it hasn't I may not be able to prove that, (that's why I said I believe it) but can you show me I am wrong with data?"

 

AGEMEMNON:??? Answer the question that LANCASTER proposed to you.

 

BB: I don't want to debate it, I believe it, if I wanted to debate it I would have started a new thread with that as a subject. The originall point was to show Phoenyxbyrd that we have different starting points so we see things differently.

 

AGEMEMNON ???

 

 

Do you not see the PROBLEM?

 

 

I'll re read my original post, I am sure I started off answering a question with a question. I will get back to you on this, but I want to reply to your Job reply...

[BibleBeliever]

you assume Job's persecution was a bad thing, in the end it made him a better person and gave us all an example to follow. read Mark 10:30 and James 5:11

 

No it didn't. He got more stuff after "God" chewed him out! That doesn't make him a better person. He was perfect beforehand anyway! "God" punished him for no reason! Have you read the story?

 

Yes I studied it for a few months actually, though it was a long time ago

It was written for our learning that meaning we don't always understand why we go through trials but we should trust God anyway.

 

 

Like all those 10 year old mine sniffer children in Korea who have their limbs blown off? Yep. I can see the improvements.

 

now you're saying that everything is caused by God, not so, that was my original point, if the people in Korea followed the bible they wouldn't do that to kids. God alows cirtain suffering to make us better but not all suffering, it goes back to free will.