Why There Most Certainly Is No God

[BibleBeliever]

AAHAHAGAGAHAHGAHAGAHAGHHHGGGGG!!!!

 

YOU DID IT AGAIN!!!

 

Look here:

LANCASTER: How are you judging intelligence?

 

BB:"Ok, let me ask is there any evidence for man being smarter now than say 200 years ago where we have a lot of documentation about what went on, what was written etc. Please note I stated that knowledge has increased, that's clear but has inteligence? I believe it hasn't I may not be able to prove that, (that's why I said I believe it) but can you show me I am wrong with data?"

 

AGEMEMNON:??? Answer the question that LANCASTER proposed to you.

 

BB: I don't want to debate it, I believe it, if I wanted to debate it I would have started a new thread with that as a subject. The originall point was to show Phoenyxbyrd that we have different starting points so we see things differently.

 

AGEMEMNON ???

 

 

Do you not see the PROBLEM?

 

Let me review...

 

BB wrote:I guess your views come from a basic presuposition that we started off as grunting cave men and we've achieved our present level of sophistication through questioning. I submit that we are actually going backwards. I think the people of a few thousand years ago were more intelligent than we are, though we have more knowledge, and the principles that they built great civilisations on we are systematically throwing away because they question God.

 

This was a statement, I am not asking for a debate, just putting forward what I believe to make a point,

 

Lancaster replied

How are you judging intelligence? There has yet to be an accurate test to determine intelligence, even the IQ test does not suffice. Are you saying that the people of thousands of years ago are more intelligent because of the ideas, such as those in the Bible that they presented? First of all, you are contradicting yourself. God gave them those principles, they did not think of them by themselves. It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to say "okay I'll do what you say" to an ultra-powerful being who has killed the entire world's population of humans before.

 

and I replied:

Ok, let me ask is there any evidence for man being smarter now than say 200 years ago where we have a lot of documentation about what went on, what was written etc. Please note I stated that knowledge has increased, that's clear but has inteligence? I believe it hasn't I may not be able to prove that, (that's why I said I believe it) but can you show me I am wrong with data?

 

OK, so we'll debate it but it won't go very far because I have nothing on my side just a few things I have heard and can't realy substanciate, and I think it's detracting from the whole 'Why There Most Certainly Is No God' theme.

 

I have read some Christian authors from the 1700's onwards and these are ordinary men, miners, school teachers etc, yet their vocabulary is far greater than that of today, I'm not talking about using different words, but using more words and showing a greater understanding of the words they use. So I believe that in the last 200 years, as the ordinary man can be heard often, we can judge that the decline in vocabulary is noticible. In fact I've just googled the phrase 'decline in vocabulary' and others are saying the same thing (though they are refering to the last 30 years).

 

So, using vocabulary as a measure of inteligence (which may or may not be reliable) we can see that man is not as clever as he used to be.

 

there are other things that point me alont this path, that clock thing they found recently that was almost 2000 years 'ahead of it's time', the pyramids that still have people scratching their heads as to how they were made, I may be out of date on these things but like I said I'm interested in you proving me wrong, just so I can move on to something else I need to learn.

 

Agememnon, I'm not trying to frustrate you, I'll be the first to admit that I'm not very good at this, I keep saying I'm here to learn and you people pulling me up is helping, So thanks! :hyper:

[Lancaster]

Please, please do not make assumptions. Refer to the article "Dawkins defends atheism" in the news at brief forum. Watch the videos. There Dawkins specifically states that he supports religious freedom. He specifically states that anyone should be allowed to worship any God they choose.

 

Do not invent statements like that.

 

I'm also not sure I understand your proposition that God punishes little Korean children by blowing their limbs blown off because the Bible was not taught to them. Is it their fault? How could they know the Bible?

 

Also: doesn't blowing their limbs off interfere with their free will? Please don't say no.

[Agememnon]

It was written for our learning that meaning we don't always understand why we go through trials but we should trust God anyway.

 

That trial had no reason to it! (other than "God" wanted to prove to "Satan" that he has POWERFUL MUSCLES!) It was clearly defined in the story. It even showed how perfect and loyal Job was! It goes to show that not everything happens for a reason and that "God" can do whatever he wants despite it being a "good" lesson. It's in your book, man.

 

 

 

now you're saying that everything is caused by God, not so, that was my original point, if the people in Korea followed the bible they wouldn't do that to kids. God alows cirtain suffering to make us better but not all suffering, it goes back to free will.

 

Yes, well, it's generally a Christian belief that if "God" is all-powerful, he causes everything to happen. You don't think this? I'm pretty sure that it says somewhere in the Bible that "God" created everything, and he has a "plan", and that EVERYTHING happens for a reason, if you don't believe this, then you aren't a Christian.

 

I like that, free will. It's free will that makes us suffer? Well, I don't know, if "God" did exist, I would rather him force me to love him then suffer! Constant bliss? I would never know the difference! I would never know free will so I would never miss it! You know, that would be a lot easier then him just letting us run wild in the world and hurting our-selfs or him "allowing" us to get hurt.

 

I thought of a little scenario just now:

Billy: "Mom, can I go outside and play in the sandbox?"

Mom: "Sure."

Me: Aren't you going to warn him about the Anti-personnel mines that you didn't put in the sandbox, but that you know full well they are there and can disarm/destroy/make Billy not go there? (<--oh yeah free will)

Mom: "Na, if he read the Mom Worship Guide he would know about them!"

Billy: *BOOM*

Me: You're crazy, mom!

Mom: "Well I have to allow a little suffering so that Billy can be a better person!"

 

A little ridiculous, but follows all the rules.

 

 

 

How about the kids who walk into mines on accident then? How about the "Christian" kids who walk into mines? How about all the "Christians" in the Iraq war right now? How about all the "Christian" soldiers ever? How about every person who has ever been raped, mugged, shot, burned, tortured, ect? It doesn't matter if you are a "Christian" or not, **** happens to everyone, equally. Believe in the Bible if you want. It doesn't matter after you are dead.

 

Which leads me to my next point: Healing Prayer.

Praying for people does not help them get healed. In fact the opposite happens. It has been proven over and over again by different, independent-of-each-other studies. Look it up. Perhaps someone can get a link up? What do you have to say to that!

[ughaibu]

Just two points:

1) surveys clearly show that the higher a person's level of education, the higher the chance of them being an atheist. I dont think there's anything controversial about stating that higher education is generally pursued by the more intelligent.

2) the question about killing in the name of Darwin and would this be Darwin's fault is silly, god is an imaginary creature, it makes no sense to ascribe blame, in the sense suggested, to an imaginary creature.

[BibleBeliever]

Please, please do not make assumptions. Refer to the article "Dawkins defends atheism" in the news at brief forum. Watch the videos. There Dawkins specifically states that he supports religious freedom. He specifically states that anyone should be allowed to worship any God they choose.

 

Do not invent statements like that.

 

Ok, I heard Dr Dawkins in a debate, the transcript is here: "The God Delusion": David Quinn debates Richard Dawkins

and here's what Dr Dawkins says...

Tubridy: Can I suggest that the next question is quite appropriate. The role of religion in wars. When you think of the difficulty that it brings up on a local level. Richard Dawkins, do you believe the world would be a safer place without religion?

 

Dawkins: Yes, I do. I don’t think that religion is the only cause of wars. Very far from it. Neither the second World War nor the first World War were caused by religion, but I do think that religion is a major exacerbater, and especially in the world today, as a matter of fact.

 

I'm also not sure I understand your proposition that God punishes little Korean children by blowing their limbs blown off because the Bible was not taught to them. Is it their fault? How could they know the Bible?

In North Korea Christians are persecuted terrably (see here North Korea Persecution Worst in World) So we see how the authorities have the bible and are refusing to follow it's teaching, so children are being hurt. When did I say God punishes the children? They are suffering because of their anti-Christian government, why is that God's fault?

 

Also: doesn't blowing their limbs off interfere with their free will? Please don't say no

God's not blowing their limbs off so he's not interfering in free will.

 

When will you people realise God wants us to see that it is man that is causing the evil in the world, you people blame God for everything but carry on rejecting the way He told us to live, you can't have it both ways. The way we live has consequenses, He has warned us about that if we're too ignorant to listen why is it His fault? Because He can stop it? He will, he says that in the bible and before He does He wants to make sure we have the opportunity to turn to Him before He draws the line and pours out His wrath on All the ungodly, 2 peter 3,verse 9

[BibleBeliever]

It was written for our learning that meaning we don't always understand why we go through trials but we should trust God anyway.

 

That trial had no reason to it! (other than "God" wanted to prove to "Satan" that he has POWERFUL MUSCLES!) It was clearly defined in the story. It even showed how perfect and loyal Job was! It goes to show that not everything happens for a reason and that "God" can do whatever he wants despite it being a "good" lesson. It's in your book, man.

 

The trial had a good reason to it, it showed Job (an us by the telling of the story) that God can be trusted even when we don't understand what's going on, you don't have to accept it, that's your choice.

 

Yes, well, it's generally a Christian belief that if "God" is all-powerful, he causes everything to happen. You don't think this? I'm pretty sure that it says somewhere in the Bible that "God" created everything, and he has a "plan", and that EVERYTHING happens for a reason, if you don't believe this, then you aren't a Christian.

 

Find me the quote in the bible and I'll answer that specificly, God is all powerful, he alows stuff to happen but to say he causes everything means we have no free will in the matter. His plan includes the fact that He knows what's going to happen and has planned for it.

 

If you think that someone is not a Christian because they don't agree with your idea of what a Christian is, then you have mis understood what you have read in the bible. 1John (that's not the gospel it's a little book near the end) tells us how we can know that we are Christains and it doesn't mention what you say.

 

I like that, free will. It's free will that makes us suffer? Well, I don't know, if "God" did exist, I would rather him force me to love him then suffer! Constant bliss? I would never know the difference! I would never know free will so I would never miss it! You know, that would be a lot easier then him just letting us run wild in the world and hurting our-selfs or him "allowing" us to get hurt.

well we don't get to make the rules, sorry

 

I thought of a little scenario just now:

Billy: "Mom, can I go outside and play in the sandbox?"

Mom: "Sure."

Me: Aren't you going to warn him about the Anti-personnel mines that you didn't put in the sandbox, but that you know full well they are there and can disarm/destroy/make Billy not go there? (<--oh yeah free will)

Mom: "Na, if he read the Mom Worship Guide he would know about them!"

Billy: *BOOM*

Me: You're crazy, mom!

Mom: "Well I have to allow a little suffering so that Billy can be a better person!"

 

A little ridiculous, but follows all the rules.

 

no it doesn't because it presupposes that the mom didn't want or didn't teach the kid the rules. this is not how it works, the rules are there they have been built into the American and English laws but are being removed slowly, we have the bible if you want to disregard it then that's your choice, if we chose not to tell our kids about it then again our kids suffer because of our choice, God has given the rule book, do you want Him to read it to everyone as soon as they learn to talk?

How about the kids who walk into mines on accident then? How about the "Christian" kids who walk into mines? How about all the "Christians" in the Iraq war right now? How about all the "Christian" soldiers ever? How about every person who has ever been raped, mugged, shot, burned, tortured, ect? It doesn't matter if you are a "Christian" or not, **** happens to everyone, equally. Believe in the Bible if you want. It doesn't matter after you are dead.

 

Which leads me to my next point: Healing Prayer.

Praying for people does not help them get healed. In fact the opposite happens. It has been proven over and over again by different, independent-of-each-other studies. Look it up. Perhaps someone can get a link up? What do you have to say to that!

 

here's a good 10 minute video that may answer some of your questions, please watch it it's not a guy preaching, it's a profoundly disabled man telling why he loves God... (I hope you have Real Audio) or his website is here:

ABOUT JOHN FARESE

 

http://media.coralridge.org/meta/CRH/ram/crh050123_F_DSL.ram

[BibleBeliever]

Just two points:

1) surveys clearly show that the higher a person's level of education, the higher the chance of them being an atheist. I dont think there's anything controversial about stating that higher education is generally pursued by the more intelligent.

2) the question about killing in the name of Darwin and would this be Darwin's fault is silly, god is an imaginary creature, it makes no sense to ascribe blame, in the sense suggested, to an imaginary creature.

 

1)Is that surveys in USA or all over the world? how about the countries like Kenya where there's chruches everywhere? how about in China where people are joining underground churches by the millions? can you give us some links?

 

2)fine, your opinion, for what it's worth.

[ughaibu]

Religion appears to be a serious interest of yours, I'm surprised that you are unaware of such studies.

Religiosity and intelligence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[phoenixbyrd]

BB: But I still disagree with the points Darwin makes that I understand correctly.

 

And what points do you understand exactly? So far, everything you've said on evolution shows that you do not understand even the slightest bit of it. I almost pissed myself laughing so hard, I can never get enough of religious people thinking that evolution equals the magical and mysterious transmutation of one species into another.

 

you missed off the rest of what I said, Never in the bible are we told to make someone a slave

 

Now how can you call yourself a good god fearing christian if you don't know that we are told to make someone a slave in the bible.

 

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

 

There are many more verses on slavery being allowed by your magnificent god.

 

Jesus came to free us from religion,

 

And he failed miserably at that. Shortly after his supposed death, the religious sect we call christians was born after a heated debate with the jewish nation over the validity of jesus being the messiah.

 

In fact I've just googled the phrase 'decline in vocabulary' and others are saying the same thing (though they are refering to the last 30 years).

 

I'm gunna pull the BS card out on this one. Can you post a link the the site or how far down the search hole you traveled to find it? I've gone 5 pages in so far and nothing but old age as cause for decline in vocabulary or damaged brains etc.

 

So, using vocabulary as a measure of inteligence (which may or may not be reliable) we can see that man is not as clever as he used to be.

 

Again, pulling out another BS card on this one as well. If we're going to use vocabulary as a measure of intelligence then perhaps we should educate you as to what vocabulary is.

 

A vocabulary is a set of words known to a person or other entity, or that are part of a specific language.

 

Armed with this nifty little tidbit of joy, I can safely say that you sir are wrong, wrong, DEAD WRONG.

 

Example.

 

Computer, big bang, telephone, diode, aspirin, plastic, pleather, polyester, ceramic coffe mug, paper plate, SPORK!

 

Seems my vocabulary is just abit more extensive then that of our ancient friends.

[Eclogite]

was watching an episode of star trek enterprise and heard the best quote ever.

"There's a difference between keeping an open mind and believing something because you want it to be true."

A related one:

"An open mind is a good thing, but you don't want it to be so open that your brains fall out."

[God's servant]

First of all, i have a problem with the title of this thread, because i want to see the 100% full proof with no holes in it most certainly blah blah blah... where is it... i didn't find it in your first article... so how can you prove without a doubt that there is no God???

[Freddy]

First of all, i have a problem with the title of this thread, because i want to see the 100% full proof with no holes in it most certainly blah blah blah... where is it... i didn't find it in your first article... so how can you prove without a doubt that there is no God???

 

You cannot prove whether there is or is not a God. There is no empirical evidence for God. Hence Agnosticism!

[Lancaster]

First of all, i have a problem with the title of this thread, because i want to see the 100% full proof with no holes in it most certainly blah blah blah... where is it... i didn't find it in your first article... so how can you prove without a doubt that there is no God???

 

How can you prove without a doubt that anything does not exist?

[pgrmdave]

exactly - it is impossible to prove that something does not exist, even god. However, there is no proof that there is a god, and as far as I can tell, no real evidence. That doesn't mean that I don't believe, but that my belief is entirely based on faith and trust, not facts and evidence. It is illogical, and unsupported, but it is my belief.

[ughaibu]

Perhaps the most famous proof is Fermat's last theorem, and this is a proof that something doesn't exist.

[Lancaster]

exactly - it is impossible to prove that something does not exist, even god. However, there is no proof that there is a god, and as far as I can tell, no real evidence. That doesn't mean that I don't believe, but that my belief is entirely based on faith and trust, not facts and evidence. It is illogical, and unsupported, but it is my belief.

 

Exactly, couldn't have said it better myself.

[phoenixbyrd]

I don't get why people still drone on and on about how we can not in any absolute way prove that any man made god does not exist ... It just boggles the mind!

 

It's very simple folks, history lessons. Go back 100 years, how was god or were gods viewed then. Go back another 500 years and so on and so on and so on. As far back as recorded history will allow us. I mean, FFS we might as well say scientology is true and frightenly, alot of people do! Just because some new religious fad pops up and takes root in societies doesn't mean that fad is truth. People used to believe alot of wacky things thousands of years ago, things we today scoff at and used to prove a point ... They were primitive in their knowledge of how things worked and came up with their ways of explaining things. Todays religion is absolutly no different then yesterdays religion, no matter how (violently) much it has become wide spread.

 

Could there be a god? Who knows, but I can assure each and every one of you, it's not any god worshipped today! Then there's the whole no proof that the universe was created by invisible people, or that life was created by invisible people, or that invisible people even exist. Unless you talk to psychotic people, they'll tell you alllll about the mean old invisible people.