God

[TINNY]

Well, the origional thinking of god came from one of two places. Either there is a god/gods and we felt his presence or had knowledge of him integrated into our being, or there is no god and we created gods to explain natural phenomena

so you don't accept any forms of revelation?

[TINNY]

I mean, why do our primitive ancessestors would even think about such thing.

yes, how does it relate to survival of the fittest?

[pgrmdave]

I would consider revelation what happens when someone realizes something that they always knew. My thinking is that we already know everything we can know about god, we are just unable to access that knowledge easily because of the world in which we live.

[pgrmdave]

Hence why meditation/prayer works, it allows us to tune in to ourselves and ignore external distractions.

[TINNY]

My thinking is that we already know everything we can know about god, we are just unable to access that knowledge easily because of the world in which we live.

whooooaa there dave! so we must be equal to or above god. that's an outstanding claim! you sure are a daredevil to post these things you know. my hindsight would never allow me to do that. maybe becoz of a slight bias from people towards muslims.

[TINNY]

Hence why meditation/prayer works, it allows us to tune in to ourselves and ignore external distractions

Again! careful with your assumptions, buddy. you really need a complete data of everything by your side as evidence in case someone demands it.

 

My judgment on you is that you are very intuitive. Eastern philosophy should really appeal to you. But the guys here say all that meditation is purely psychological. nothing metaphysical. :)

[pgrmdave]

so we must be equal to or above god.

 

No, we don't know everything there is to know, just everything he wants us to be able to know.

[TINNY]

your ideas are somewhat along the lines of this although maybe not quite as sophisticated:

there is a separate mental world, grounded in the physical world, and there is also another separate world, that of abstract ideas... Physics is not adequate to explain consciousness. The second part uses Quantum Theory to draft a theory of consciousness.... this relates to Goedel's theorem, which puts a limit to what a Turing machine can do, a limit that does not apply to the human mind; ergo a Turing machine cannot be a mind, and, viceversa, a mind is not a Turing machine... consciousness is a manifestation of the quantum cytoskeletal state and its interplay between quantum and classical levels of activity...Consciousness must be a quantum phenomenon because neurons are too big to account for consciousness...is led to believe in a Platonic scenario of conscious states that exist in a world of their own, and to which our minds have access. But his "world of ideas" is a Physics' world: quantum spin networks encode proto-conscious states. Different configurations of quantum spin geometry represent varieties of conscious experience.

cut and pastes from a book called Shadows of the Mind

[sanctus]

. Why do we even thought about god in the first place. I mean, why do our primitive ancessestors would even think about such thing. Can it be natural?

 

Well, here I've got an answer which has been very well developped by Stanislaw Lem in his book "and so spoke Golem". Humans found themselves by having consciousness of themselves and so thay started asking the questions like where do we come from why are we here and so on. The easiest answer to that (and therefore the most likely our ancestor would take) is that there is a or many gods that created us. In other words consciuosness created a whole that weneeded to fill, we did it with culture and religion (which can be strongly related).

To understand better what I mean try to think away all your beliefs and then as well all your cultural bindings, you rest with no reason to live! I'm not religious, but I think about my future, my way of thinking is influenced by my culture; for example I thinkI will go to the carnival, I will get married, I will have children, and so on. If I take away that I rest with no reason to continue. Accepting that is already hard, in plus if you choose the easy way(if you follow my theory you must agree that in this context it IS the easy way, it's not intended to offend anybody), i.e. believing in god, it's even harder, all your basis is just swept away.

[Freethinker]

the guys here say all that meditation is purely psychological. nothing metaphysical. :)

So what? Who cares what "the guys here say"? All you have to do is PROVE it to the contrary.

 

Simple enough?

 

Or is it well beyond just being restricted by what "the guys here say"? Is it that you KNOW you can not PROVE anything?

[Freethinker]

No, we don't know everything there is to know, just everything (god) wants us to be able to know.

So god proactively chooses who will and who won't believe in him/ be saved. As you say, he decides "everything (he) wants us to be able to know". We can not then know more or less than is predetermined by god. Those of us that (he must have also predetermined) expect more proof, will intentionally be held short. And thus we are being inetionally set up by god for eternal punishment and there is not a thing a single one of us can do one way or other.

 

Now where is that thread on Free Will?

[Tormod]

Hence why meditation/prayer works, it allows us to tune in to ourselves and ignore external distractions.

How exactly does this help prayer work for others?

[pgrmdave]

I don't know. I don't know whether or not it does help others, or whether or not that could be proven, but I do believe, without proof, that prayer helps one focus internally, which, assuming my other ideas were right, would allow one to understand god to a greater degree. That only works if my other ideas are correct, but it makes sense to me, so I believe it.

[Tormod]

yes, how does it relate to survival of the fittest?

Does it have to? I'd say it's a cultural thing. Not necessarily something we need to evolve. Believing that your place in the universe is special does not make it special.

 

Also, human beings evolved long before we got religion. Maybe we'll see two species in the future...Homo Atheistis and Homo Religiosis. :) (Pardon my Latin)

[Tormod]

I do believe, without proof, that prayer helps one focus internalyl

Yes, I understand that, no problems there. But if I fell sick and you pray for me, do you still think prayer would work in the setting you create? It would require prayer to work outside of your personal sphere.

 

Your version of prayer sounds more like meditation than prayer to me.

 

(I am *not* trying to offend you, pal).

[sanctus]

WEll, tormod what's the difference between prayer and meditation? To me prayer is just a sub-category of meditation. prayer is concentrating on his own body with believe in god, meditation is concentrating with or without a belief.

[Tormod]

WEll, tormod what's the difference between prayer and meditation? To me prayer is just a sub-category of meditation. prayer is concentrating on his own body with believe in god, meditation is concentrating with or without a belief.

I agree with this.

 

What I am asking is whether prayer can have an effect on external things. So if PG prays for my well being, does it benefit him (meditation makes him more relaxed and at peace) or me (prayer works as some sort of distance healing).