God

[Freethinker]

I agree with this.

 

What I am asking is whether prayer can have an effect on external things. So if PG prays for my well being, does it benefit him (meditation makes him more relaxed and at peace) or me (prayer works as some sort of distance healing).

I also agree that meditation can benefit the meditator. And I am sure there is a number of resources that can scientifically prove it. Anything from the increase in effort caused by a Positive Mental Attitude, the intentional direction of effort and self fulfilling prophecy. Not any "material" changes. Nothing regarding the causal laws or laws of physics are being violated,

 

The problem is when there is some claim to some external agent as being party to the effort. As if some extra-natural entity is listenting to our plees and changes our reality in order to respond. That is absurd. It lacks ANY valid substance. It lacks any logical approach. It shows in inability to reason, or lack of desire too.

 

And what you are referring to Tormod is called "intercessory prayer". The concept that one person can petition some outside agent to alter our reality for someone else. This has been tested many times. The results of the tests show an interesting process. Yes each and every one of the tests has shown that there is no such 2nd party effectiveness. It is a complete bust. But what is just as interesting is the extent the researchers, always driven by those desperate to find a positive result, will go to to lie about the failure of the test.

 

e.g. the infamous Dr Byrd Coronary Care Unit research. The intitial report was even titled "Positive Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer in a Coronary Care Unit Population". Note it did not say "results of", it made the suppsed factual claim of "Positive Therapeutic Effects". It was even given exposure in a credited peer reviewed publication. (Which later published a retraction)

 

Then it was evaulated by independant researchers and the claim fell apart completely. The Indepedant researchers found such obvious intentional fraud as only acknowledging positive results and ignoring negative or no effect. For example, 26 different aspects of the coronary care process were monitored. 6 showed a slight positive correlation. a 5-7% imporvement in cerrtain aspects, such as 5 percent fewer patients needed diuretics, 7 percent fewer needed antibiotics. And based on taking only those processes that had a positive correlation, Byrd generated his report claiming "Positive Therapeutic Effects". However the larger body of evidence showed either no results or a negative correlation. But publishing a FULL FACTUAL results report, IOW telling the TRUTH, would not provide the proof desired.

 

THis particular report also shows how the media buys into these things. When the report first came out, the lies, it was spread across every media source in existence. Even Time mag did an article about it. But when the research was shown to be highly faulty in process (lack of control groups, research controls, not double blind, selective acceptance of results, ...) nothing much was said. And in fact you will still find many Christian sources claiming the original results while intentionally ignoring the actual results. Choosing to continue the LIE on purpose.

 

Once more we find that Christians will stop at nothing to promote their lies no matter how harmful it might be. And face it, intentionally lying in medical research involving life threatening medical complications and their treatment is nothing short of immoral. And obviously very Christian.

 

More on this specific issue at:

 

God in the CCU?

A critique of the San Francisco hospital study on intercessory prayer and healing

Gary P. Posner, M.D.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gary_posner/godccu.html

[lindagarrette]

Any change, however induced, that affects the chemicsal balance of the brain will alter physical response. So, whether it's drugs, prayer, meditation, psychotherapy, or lobotomy, it all results in reaction by the central nervous system to a stimulation (or lack thereof) by the brain itself. The degree of influence can vary by the intensity of the change and the electrical stimulation path. There is nothing unique about prayer or meditation.

 

LSD was once thought to uncover some hidden mental pathways but now it is clear that that drug only inhibits processing of normal conscious thought for most people and the brain tries to make sense out of what's left. I recall something like that hapening to me when I was young and foolish.

[Aquagem]

There is nothing unique about prayer or meditation.

 

LSD was once thought to uncover some hidden mental pathways but now it is clear that that drug only inhibits processing of normal conscious thought for most people and the brain tries to make sense out of what's left. I recall something like that hapening to me when I was young and foolish.

 

The idea that altered states of consciousness are due to contact with a "higher mind", or other similar terms is the common response of people experiencing them. The counter-idea, that altered states of consciousness are due to the brain's attempt to reinterpret the remnants of consciousness with some centers removed from the equation, is radically different and bound to be unpopular with the first group. But there is some very interesting experimental evidence that the second idea is much closer to the truth, oddly enough, provided by research done by someone very much in the "higher consciousness" camp.

 

You may have heard about a book written by Dr. Andrew Newberg entitled Why God Won't Go Away, subtitled "Brain Science and the Biology of Belief". It's become the darling of religious apologists because, in it, Newberg does his best to legitimate mystical experiences by detailing neuroscientific research he has conducted with people who meditate deeply. The book has much more in it and is a good read for information about mythology, some evolution theory, and most important, about some late research on brain centers and their possible integration.

 

(I would love to write a book review for Hypography, not just for the information mentioned above, but to illustrate how a religious mind can stare truth straight in the face and shy away from what it's saying. I took over 50 pp of notes and added my own rejoinders in the process of reading it.)

 

I bring up this book, because Newberg combed through historical writings from various religious traditions and times to show that deep mystical experiences are described with remarkable uniformity, including an "oceanic" sense of unity with all creation, absolute bliss, a lack of anxiety or fear, and complete peace and love. He goes on to show that major aspects of these experiences match his own research with a Tibetan Buddhist meditator, who was able to signal when he reached the depth of his session, was injected with tracer, and then given an MRI to see which brain centers were affected by the meditative state. The results were most revealing.

 

(The description of the testing is the subject of Chapter 1, entitled, "A Photograph of God?" This is available in full text online:

 

Excerpt & Reviews of 'Why God Won't Go Away' by Andrew Newberg, MD ...... Excerpt: Printable Excerpt Printer Friendly Version Contents: A Photograph of God? ... Chapter One A Photograph of God? An introduction to the Biology of Belief. ...

www.bookbrowse.com/index.cfm?page=title& titleID=788&view=excerpt - 34k -

 

It was through the online post that I first heard about the book. I recommend reading this, if nothing else.)

 

The results of Newberg's testing on the meditator were initially surprising. The main difference in the MRI of his subject while in the deep state was one particular area "going dark", that is, experiencing much less activity that in a waking brain. The area is the posterior parietal cortex, located in the sensory half of the cerebrum (behind the central fissure, aft of the primary sensory cortical area, and bounded in the rear by the visual cortex). Newberg refers to the posterior parietal cortex as the "orientation association area", which is the primary system that integrates body placement, position, and awarness of surroundings. I've read more about this area in neuroscience texts, because I wanted to cross check what Newberg said and get another perspectives on what this system does. That's where it gets interesting.

 

The orientation association area has significantly different functions between left and right lobes. The left area keeps track of the body; tells you where your body ends, how it's oriented in space; how big it is. The right area, in contrast, is the locus of your awareness of the environment around you. It registers everything that your body is not, the "not you". The intersection between these two functions allows you to be aware of yourself in your surroundings, and requires a constant flow of data to maintain that awareness. When you walk through a tight door, for example, the left orientation association area tells you how big you are, the right estimates how big the door is, and the two together tell you you have to turn sideways to make it through.

 

What, then, happens when you shut that system down? Well, if you were in a waking state, you'd walk into walls, fail to step over curbs, and probably feel vertiginous, like a pilot flying in a cloud without visual reference to the ground. In the meditative state, you would lose the sense of the extent of your self. You would no longer feel the "differentness" of who you are and all that surrounds you. Lacking that sense of separation from your environment, your brain would experience the feeling of being undifferentiated, of being separate, of being unitary. You would feel as though you and the universe are one.

 

I have become acutely aware of my own orientation association area as I move through life, riding my bike, skiing down a hill, or being aware of a rectilinear surrounding frame of reference in a dark room. I believe that it will be shown soon (if it hasn't already) that our metaphors for orientation originate in this section of the brain (e.g., "I'm feeling up today" or "she was a fallen woman").

 

If I were a monk who spent hours a day in a balanced posture, intent upon decreasing the constant chatter of bodily sensations, quieting my spinal cord traffic until the orientation association area fell (relatively) silent, I can easily imagine the sense of wonder, relief, lack of anxiety, etc., attending mystical states. If I had no idea what was happening (which I had, before reading Newberg's book), I might take it literally. Rather than saying, "In my compromised state, I have lost my sense of separation from my environment", I might well say, "The universe and I are one. My fear is gone. I am cloaked in peace and wonder. Surely I am one with God."

 

Good book to read. I've written a lot about this in my spare time.

 

One last point I'm sure you're aware of is that split-brain research has shown that the brain goes to extreme lengths to invent rational explanations for anything it experiences. For example, the left brain will make up elaborate excuses for things the right brain is doing and which the left brain has not been privy to. It cranks out ad hoc explanations ad infinitum in a total vacuum of knowledge. This puts the individual in danger of taking something literally that has no basis whatsoever.

 

Oddly, Newberg not only doesn't seem to realize this aspect of his research, and in fact cranks out ad hoc explanations for why the mystics might be right (one with universe and God), despite the much simpler explanation his own data strongly suggests.

 

But, in a different vein, Newberg states clearly that it is these rare individuals, the ones who get to the deep mystical state, who create religions. This is a major insight. One who has experienced the deep state comes back with glowing tales of wonder, underpinned by powerful emotional insistence that this is TRUE, not that it emerged from a compromised brain state. It radiates with charisma, delivers a message we all long to hear and offers hope of another world, a better world, a world of light and peace. St. Augustine described that world brilliantly in the last chapter of his Confessions, and sold the whole western world on it. It lives with us still.

 

Since reading his book, I have become very aware of politicians and virtually everyone else making up rationalizations for things they do that are completely out of touch with reality. We call that "spin", and it seems to be much greater motivation than truth in directing human affairs.

 

HOWEVER – in the right frame of understanding, altering your conscious state pulls you out of the world to which to have become blind by overexposure. It opens new vistas of thought and stimulates the imagination to question its own base of understanding. It makes the impossible possible in your mind, because you only thought it was impossible by default. So, you and I may have been young once, but I don't think what we did was foolish at all. ; )

[lindagarrette]

Aquagem. Great explanation and thought provoking insight. I bookmarked the bookbrowse website. Thank you!:)

[Freethinker]

HOWEVER – in the right frame of understanding, altering your conscious state pulls you out of the world to which to have become blind by overexposure. It opens new vistas of thought and stimulates the imagination to question its own base of understanding. It makes the impossible possible in your mind, because you only thought it was impossible by default. So, you and I may have been young once, but I don't think what we did was foolish at all. ; )

Yes, I see any claim of some extra-natural advanced state of thought as being completely unsupportable. We have the physiogical capabilites we have and that is all we ahave.

 

Can we use them better? Sure. Even simple courses in logic and reason, philosophy, even math or music can improve our thought process. But it does not increase our physical abilities beyond oour physiological limits.

 

Neither does any "altered" states. They are just as the name suggests "Altered".

 

I have reached what is called "transendence" in meditation. The point at which we do seperate our consciousness from being self aware, as mentioned in a previous post. And it was not chemically induced (unless you include the food I may have eaten prior to it?) But I do not attach any extra-natural interaction to it. Just as previously stated, a "quiteing" or suppression of certain thought processes.

 

And yes I have had some chemically induced ones that I also suggest were not "foolish" youthfull errors. Any more than sky diving would be. And perhaps even safer ... in SOME cases! :-)

[pgrmdave]

In response to your question Tormod, no I don't believe in intercessory prayer.

[ant]

Most religious beliefs contradict science...religion that is...

 

I grew up learning a certain religion but all I learned in grade school, college, and other studies opposed religious beliefs...but did not effect my awe for God...it actually supports my awareness.

 

I asked the questions as a child and the answer still leaves me in wonder...what exists beyond all physical matter? What existed prior to the cause of matter? What brought that nothingness about...The answer is much too profound for the Homo Sapien to even consider. The answer is God...or whatever you may call him...the great majestic entity that all people all over seek to understand and communicate to the best of their constricted ability is what some of us call God.

Science conflicts with many religions but in terms of how I view God Science is the brilliant code that is made up of basic intricate variations of energy that primarily bond into desired formations creating fundamental elements, molecules, particles, arranged ingeniously to reproduce according to the environment, and evolve to better fit its surroundings. We seek to understand this profound concept or entity forming religion and science...unfortunately religious understanding may start off from basic yearning to connect with God but is shaped and hindered negatively by materialistic desires, politics for example.

[infamous]

I certainly believe in God, there have been way too many things happen in my life time that can only be answered by some external manipulation. I'm going on sixty three years of age at present and know one thing for certain, that God is the greatest scientist of all. I believe if we had all the answers, that it would not conflict with the God concept at all.

[sanctus]

Welcome to the forum ant.

If I understand you well, you are saying that God is some kind of code which permitted the start of the formation of matter. As I said many times elsewhere, god can be seen as the anti-symmetry between matter and anti-matter, which made that our universe is not only free energy. But then you took all the supernatural things of god....

[sanctus]

Welcome to the forum infamous!

 

If you read our FAQ you would know that you can write almost whatever you want on this forum, as long as you don't just make statements without proof. I can also say that there are heaps of things that have proven to me that god doesn't exist, but then you would ask me to explain what it is.

[ant]

God is not a code..He is the programmer and science is the program...or code. Appreciation of Science does not contradict God as many feel it does.(although it does contradict religion which is derived by man)..I am simply using an analogy to express how they can exist in harmony. It is bothersome to see so much debate and closemindedness when there needn't be a debate at all. :) Just as I love science and find such intrege in great questions and theory proposed by great thinkers, researchers, and prize winners...the awe and wonderment felt is similiar to each person's ideology. Or as I learned in the biology program...it's all connected!!

[infamous]

Well said ant; I believe that we may be in the minority around here. But just consider it to be the great challenge that it is. Tolstoy has been quoted as saying that men only learn when they are suffering, somewhat reminicent of Biblical teaching don't you think.

[Tormod]

It is bothersome to see so much debate and closemindedness when there needn't be a debate at all. :)

That is one big oxymoron. Closedmindedness is to ask for no debate.

[infamous]

I must agree with you Tormod, debate is the vehicle we must ride on this suffering road of existence. I am willing to suffer if I can learn something new. The question is, how much do I want to suffer.

[Freethinker]

Ah new posters and once more we redefine what the word god means. So let me join in.

 

God is the stain left in my underware if I don't wipe completely.

 

God exists! Want to see proof?

 

Yes we can invent new meanings for any word (or sounds we make). But when we use that approach we can not expect to have intellectual discourse. No one will know what the other is saying. So if you want to discuss some extra-natural entity that operates quite distinct from what the vast majority of people would understand when you use the word "god", why not choose to use a word or phrase that will not cause this conflict or confusion?

 

And yes infamous you are right, Biblical teaching causes suffering.

[Tim_Lou]

god always exists in our society because there is always something unknown, and god is defined as anything that cannot be explained.

 

well, take a look at the scene of 9/11...

the airplane just crashed into the twin tower! how can that be?! oh my "god"!

[TINNY]

god is defined as anything that cannot be explained.

big social pressure time, huh? gotta be on the right side, else you ain't gonna be a moderator. Your SAT II is coming up, and you don't wanna mess that up by being confused with Gap Gods instead of scientific cause and effect.

Anyway, you really sure that god is defined as anything that cannot be explained. Did you just make that up? Coz I'm sure God has been well explained throughout the ages. The omnipotent, eternal, omniscient and omnipresent are primary atttributes of god.

 

by the way, something moving at the speed of light must possess infinite mass. Does light have infinite mass? Oh no! All that light rushing towards you has infinite mass and it'll knock you out. Run! ...Ooops! Damn! Light is everywhere! Ubiquitous huh? What do you do? Strange. How can it be everywhere? Is it omnipresent?

 

Someone plz shoot me!

Tim, sorry. Forget all this. Focus on your SAT!