Language system?!

[alexander]

Tim, i would think that pictures are a form communication for humans, but i dont think that they necessarily mean language...

[Tim_Lou]

if there is an ancient "drawing" in a cave, with elephants and humans (every elephant and human look very similar) in it, would we say that it is a piece of "literature" or "picture"?

 

lets say the ancient humans used to draw elephants, these simple drawings are very similar to each other, thus they used the same drawings over and over again to represent elephants. when did these "pictures" become known as language?

 

similar with sound: lets say the ancient humans used to yell in a special way when theyr in danger, later they used this "yelling" over and over again to represents danger. so, when did this "yelling" change into language?

 

If 2 artists draw 2 pictures of tigers that are very similar to each other, would we say that it is lanuguage?

or what if many musicians sing the same song that expresses happiness and joy, would we say that it is language?

[IrishEyes]

would we say that it is language?

 

Tim, I'd say that your examples are all forms of communication. But as others have pointed out, that doesn't mean they are a language.

 

While people sometimes talk about 'body-language', it is really just a form of non-verbal communication, not an actual language. Pictures, while they are communication, are not a language (at least that's how my English Prof always spoke of my Art Prof!). Your 2 artists drawing 2 tigers are communicating an idea, but that communication is not a language until there are words attached. And as Linda pointed out, both of those 2 artists must use the same 'word' for tiger in order to understand each other. THere has to be rules, and following that through- those rules must be understood by all of the people seeking to communicate in that way (ie- all of the people in the village have to use the same word for tiger!). Now your musicians might have a 'language', as they are presumably using the same sounds to express joy or sorrow.

[Tim_Lou]

so, can i draw a conclusion that songs are part of a language?

[Tormod]

so, can i draw a conclusion that songs are part of a language?

I think "music" as a whole can be called a language. Many musicians (and others) say it is a "universal" language, because members of completely different cultures can understand the moods and be touched by music of other cultures.

[Aquagem]

I think "music" as a whole can be called a language. Many musicians (and others) say it is a "universal" language, because members of completely different cultures can understand the moods and be touched by music of other cultures.

Music and language share similar spaces in the temporal lobes on opposite sides of the brain. A good example is the WORDS that you say and comprehend (left hemisphere) and the TONE of VOICE, right hemisphere, which carries the emotional content, and which is music when the tones are abstracted. The right temporal lobe knows maybe twenty words, but the subtlest nuances of tone. The left is verbose, but unfeeling. A person with damage to the right hemisphere can understand the story conveyed by a joke, but can't "get" it because the emotional content is missing.

 

Gotta run.

[lindagarrette]

I think "music" as a whole can be called a language. Many musicians (and others) say it is a "universal" language, because members of completely different cultures can understand the moods and be touched by music of other cultures.

Music is not a language A language is a system for conveying information that has to be learned and interpreted by individuals within a group. A crying baby is expressing something that may be understood by others as grief or pain but it is not language.

[Tormod]

A language is a system for conveying information that has to be learned and interpreted by individuals within a group.

That sounds like music to me. :)

 

Granted, music comes in more varieties than language, and in a strictly semantic setting I agree, music appears to be a language but is something else. It does have certain aspects of language - ie, cultural foundation, emotion-invoking, educational, inspirational, and not least communicative. Jsut like music has many aspects of language, language have aspects of music.

 

What then about written (sheet) music? It does indeed fit the definition you give above.

[Tim_Lou]

to me, pictures are a type of languages too.

 

lets say there are couple drawings of tigers, the tigers must be somewhat similar (grammar). At least it has to have 4 legs, a head, and a tail.

 

so, symbols that represent certain objects and follow certain rules, arent they languages?

[Tim_Lou]

"Music is not a language A language is a system for conveying information that has to be learned and interpreted by individuals within a group. A crying baby is expressing something that may be understood by others as grief or pain but it is not language."

 

musics also carry informations such as emotions, and it also has to be learnt. One doesnt know a song unless they hear it.

so, what is the differences between a sound and languages?

what about pictures and words?

[alexander]

tim, pictures as they are, are not a language, but if they have rules, names, values grammar, specific way of writing and representing something, they can become a language. Example of such a language, hieroglyphics.

[IrishEyes]

At what point does something that is NOT something - become something?

 

Alex says that pictures, as they are, are not a language ... BUT they can become a language. Is following the rules mentioned (ie: names, values grammar, specific way of writing and representing something) what makes the pictures go from being 'just pictures' to being a 'language'?

 

So following that line of thinking, Tormod's sheet music is also language, as is those darn tiger pics Tim keeps mentioning, right?

[Tormod]

If I understood Alexander right he is saying that pictures become language when used as language. So pictures in themselves do not constitute a language while pictograms do.

[lindagarrette]

I'm just stating what I learned as an undergrad majoring in linguistics. The accepted definition of language is specific and does not include pictures or music, or writing, or any other verbal or graphical representation of sounds, emotions, etc... Language is a system structured so that people within a group can understand each other. A given language (not dialect) excludes others from the group who do not have the same knowldege.

 

There are many forms of communication besides language. Language is one form, music is another form, pictures are another form, body movement is another. We define terms specifically as possible to facilitate communication. If all words meant the same of if generalities were all we had to deal with, our communication wouldn't be very efficient.

[alexander]

Hey, that sounds like an awesome conclusion, linda. Wouldn't it be awesome if someone wrote an article on language that faced at least some of the issues discussed in this thread as well as discussed some basics. :)

[Tormod]

Hey, that sounds like an awesome conclusion, linda. Wouldn't it be awesome if someone wrote an article on language that faced at least some of the issues discussed in this thread as well as discussed some basics. :)

I second that! Linda would be the right person to write something like that.

[alexander]

thats who i was :) ing to, I hope she interprets the :) the right way :) :)

... i hope i'm not ;) ing too much