Language system?!

[Tim_Lou]

I'm just stating what I learned as an undergrad majoring in linguistics. The accepted definition of language is specific and does not include pictures or music, or writing, or any other verbal or graphical representation of sounds, emotions, etc... Language is a system structured so that people within a group can understand each other. A given language (not dialect) excludes others from the group who do not have the same knowldege.

 

There are many forms of communication besides language. Language is one form, music is another form, pictures are another form, body movement is another. We define terms specifically as possible to facilitate communication. If all words meant the same of if generalities were all we had to deal with, our communication wouldn't be very efficient.

 

isnt language a combination of "pictures" and "sounds"?

 

well, what if i sing out english words?

or draw a picture of the word "bed" and makes it look like a real bed?

are they languages or not?

how about I change "a" to :)

":) n ;) pple per day, healthy all the w :) y"

 

"The accepted definition of language is specific and does not include pictures or music, or writing, or any other verbal or graphical representation of sounds, emotions, etc..."

isnt language a type of picture? a type of "music" (how it sounds)?

 

what do you mean "other verbal or graphical representation of sounds" ?

"other"? being "other" in what way?

 

"specific"? please be specific.

 

im confused about the differences between sounds, pictures and languages.... are they different just because the differnece in level of complexity?

 

hmm, is the definition of language simply a general acceptance?

so, if many people say English is language, then its language?

and if many people say rap music is a type of language, then it is language to?

[IrishEyes]

and if many people say rap music is a type of language, then it is language to?

 

Tim, nothing will ever make rap music a language! :)

[lindagarrette]

The posts to this topic indicate that most people in this forum lack a basic understanding of language and linguistics. Like any other topic, you should first investigate before you start blabbing, especially if you don't have background. Without some foundation or standard agreement on the subject vocabulary, any discussion is fruitless. Here is a reference with a lot of general information. I suggest you explore at leasst some introductory material before pursuing this topic any further. If you have specific questions that don't require going back to ground zero for explanation of the principles, I will be happy to respond. http://www.humanevolution.net/a/language.html

 

Here is an explanation from one of the early developers of linguistic theory, Otto Jesperson. 'The essence of language is human activity - activity on the part of one individual to make himself understood by another, and activity on the part of that other to understand what was in the mind of the first.'

 

Your comments and questions should be interpreted through this context. A language is a system of relatively arbitrary symbols and grammatical signals that change across time and that members of a community share and use for several purposes to interact with each other, to communicate their ideas, emotions, and intentions and to transmit their culture from generation to generation. (Baker-Shenk and Cokely: ASL, p. 31)

[IrishEyes]

lindagarrette,

I think that the posts to this topic indicate the curiosity of one young person, and his search for answers from a community that he has come to respect. You are part of that community, linda. Some of the people here may not have your knowledge of the subject, however that is no reason to give up on the discussion. If you are seriously frustrated, or wish to no longer participate in the discussion, that's fine. However, it would be much more productive to share your considerable amount of knowledge with us, and help us to better understand the concepts you find so very basic.

 

Both Tormod (site Editor) and alexander (site Moderator) have requested that you write an article that addresses some of the questions raised in this thread. I'd like to also ask that you do this, personal time permitting. With your vast knowledge of the subject matter, you are uniquely qualified to write authoritatively on this subject. Please consider it, won't you?

 

As to Tim... your questions are very interesting, and show your thirst for knowledge. I think it is wonderful that you are interested in more than just mathematical topics. I also hope that you continue asking your questions HERE at Hypography, instead of just researching them on your own. Asking your very intriguing questions in the Forum allows the rest of us to benefit from your curiosity, and also challenges us to think about things that we otherwise might not. Thanks for the continued interest in the world around you, Tim!!

[Tim_Lou]

hmm, interesting website, thx linda.

so, definition of language is that "specific".

 

well, in the website provided above:

2) This construction process probably came about through heterochrony, or changes in the growth patterns of one or more cognitive-social capacities. We can infer that at some point in history, these "old parts" reached a new quantitative level that permitted qualitatively new interactions, including the emergence of symbols...4) If the evolution of language involved changes in the regulatory genes, and considerable interaction with task constraints, then it is likely that the process is at least partially repeated in the ontogeny of individual language users.

 

so, does the evolution of language results in a genetic change?

but isnt it proven wrong that acquired characteristics are not inherited by genes?

 

also, does the construction process of language evolve over time? through genes or society?

[Tormod]

The posts to this topic indicate that most people in this forum lack a basic understanding of language and linguistics.

For the record, I have studied linguistics (at least 3 semesters of it) as part of my Bachelor of Music degree, and also English grammar and syntax as part of my "other" (Norwegian) degree in English lit and music (totalling about 2-3 years of language studies).

[lindagarrette]

Tormod, all I'm saying is that for me to address topics in linguistics, I have to know what the question is or if there is one. So far, most of the posts are merely opinionated comments, not based on any substantial knowledge of the subject.

 

My concentration was on historical linguistics, related to spoken language which is what most of language is. When it comes to nig-picking over definitions, then anything goes. In my opinion, however, the purpose of language is to communicate between people who have common definitions of the same terms, and keep up with the changes. That's why dictionaries have to be continuously updated.

 

Here are some fundamental definition: Languages have words. All languages have a grammar, the set of rules speakers of the language follow when they speak. It encompasses rules about the possible forms of words, rules about the way bits of words can be put together, rules about the way words can be put together to make longer units. The rules are specific and the purpose is to enable communication within a group. Outsiders cannot understand unless they learn the language.

 

If you would like a hypography (or article) on the subject, then please give me some guidelines and I will be happy to comply. I'm not being critical of anyone's lack of knowledge. It's just that if you don't know, say so, don't argue your opinion without substantiation. Linda

 

(PS, Tormod, I also studied music for many many years, thinking I could become a concert pianist but discovered it takes a lot more talent than I was endowed with.)

[pgrmdave]

It seems to me that language has to be specific, which rules out things like music, which, while great for emotions and broad ideas, can't be used for everyday conversation.

[lindagarrette]

Some linguists consider bird song, whale song, and primate grunts to be a form of language. (And DNA code may be a form of language.)

[Aquagem]

Some linguists consider bird song, whale song, and primate grunts to be a form of language. (And DNA code may be a form of language.)

Linda, I've been trying to follow this thread behind the scenes. It seems from your posts that something like the following might be true:

 

A bird song, or a whale song, or a primate grunt might be considered language if the sounds represented something relatively specific ("there's a mackerel at two o'clock") that was shared by both "speaker" and "listener". To qualify, it would have to be, broadly speaking, a cultural artifact, and include elements of structure and execution that would convey meaning in addition to, or separable from, the emotional undertone, which is communicative, but not linguistic.

 

If an animal tried to mimic the sound of a predator to warn her troupe, would you consider this language? Or would it be linguistic only after the population had extruded a verbal representation (like, "roar!"), possibly beginning with onomatopoeic imitation and used conventionally as a specific representation of something? This would make such vocalizations in sound rather like heiroglyphics, where a leaf takes on the meaning of money, and the number of leaves communicates wealth.

 

It seems likely that language would begin by differentiating NAMES of specific things in an animal's environment, followed by the abstraction of NOUNS from names, adjectives derived from nouns to show peripheral associations, and, later, verbs, to convey actions (time-related aspects).

 

Is this in the ballpark? In the parking lot outside the ballpark?

[lindagarrette]

Not bad. The base requirements for language are the existance of words (which could be the various tones of birds, whales....., and grammar. Grammar is just the set of rules that have to be followed when members of the group speaking the same language communicate with each other. And, it has to be learned. Individuals outside the group cannot understand. So, a dialect, for example is not a language. But that's another story and related to my favorite subject: historical linguistics.

[pgrmdave]

I think I know where you are going, but what you said: words(which can be tones) and grammer, is also found in music, with different chords, each with their own feelings, and different chord progressions. The chord progressions are different for different cultures, yet within each culture, there are accepted "correct" progressions.