Proof of multiverse?

[wine]

What proof does man have of our universe just being one of infinite?

 

Are there universes around us at all times that we can not sense but operate, or vibrate, at different "frequencies"? How do you think dark matter ties into this?

I know this area of cosmology is quite confusing, I am asking your personal opinion.

 

In a nutshell, "I" have had many out of body experiences.

I have also had many "near death" experiences where I found myself in extreme situations and have experienced paranormal, mystic, and psychedelic experiences naturally.

 

In these situations, I have seen infinite fractal geometry making up my bodyless universe. Pulsating. It seemed like it was right there, around me, all the time. In these realms of light I gave in, and was submissed for what seemed like hours, and calculates to minutes.

 

I know this must sound crazy to you scientists, but also in these realms I have seen other beings.

I was not "on drugs." I know your policy here at Hypography.

Many other people have seen these "elves" and it perfectly explains why people think they have been abducted.* *See Rick Strassman's research for proof.

 

Our consciousness is a window to the divine unsensable.

 

I just can't tell if these things happen all around us all of the time and we just can't see it, or if it's all just a vivid hallucination.

 

If it is just a hallucination, why do so many people see the same things?

 

The white light, the aliens . . And everything else in between.

 

I know I went off into strange details, but I had to share my experiences.

I want to further understand the concept of infinite universes.

 

I was watching something about stephen hawking last night on the science channel and he proposed that there are black holes in some universes, and not in others, which makes perfect sense, but...

 

Where are they? Outside of this one? Intertwining? Are they this one just on "another level"

A different plane?

 

Is the event horizon a gateway to the other universes maybe? (Of course, we're not getting through, I know)

 

Please share your opinions.

[Tormod]

What proof does man have of our universe just being one of infinite?

 

AFAIK absolutely none.

[infamous]

What proof does man have of our universe just being one of infinite?

None as yet.............

 

 

In a nutshell,

You find nuts............

 

In these situations, I have seen infinite fractal geometry making up my bodyless universe. Pulsating.

Have you had your eyes checked lately?

 

 

I know this must sound crazy to you scientists,

What scientists?????????

 

Our consciousness is a window to the divine unsensable.

Unsensable?.............undenyable!!

 

 

Please share your opinions.

That would be past tense..............Infy

[wine]

No proof...

 

So mysterious.

[wine]

Have you had your eyes checked lately?

 

I have perfect vision, sir. I see things the way they truly are, with much confusion, interferrence, inbetween.

 

If you were to die, and come back to life, you would understand what I'm trying to describe, becaue you would have been dosed with DMT naturally by your own brain.

 

You don't need DMT to see beautiful mandalas in the sunshine with your eyes closed either, Infamous. Give it a shot.

The trick is to look at a lot of beautiful things often,

that way there are a lot of beautiful things stored in your mind

for when you close your eyes.

 

See: Flowers:bloom: :) , Mandalas, Visualisations for winamp:hypnodisk: , dream machine, etc.

 

I thought that maybe these amazing visions were somehow tied to the possibility of all these other dimensions but....

 

there are all these other dimensions and....

 

at this point in time there's little we can do but dabble in the puddles of mystery . .? ;) ;)

 

(we art one)(whatever (everything) one is)

[wine]

 

Unsensable?.............undenyable!!

 

 

When you are dreaming, you are not sensing, though you Feel

Taste

Think . .

 

This is psychic activity! Not an act of sensing.

 

:)

 

The mind is not the brain

or is it? Your mind closed can't

absorb this prose.

[Buffy]

What proof does man have of our universe just being one of infinite?

The proof is quite easy that there are *not* an infinite number of universes! This was the topic of an article in SciAm a couple of years ago on the topic of multiverses:

 

Basically--*assuming* a Big Bang, which I know some of our members vehemently deny, but could also be the case with a Steady State Universe--we know there are a finite number of "particles" that make up the universe (define "particles" at the lowest level necessary). You can define all the different states of all of those particles in a finite manner as well. Then you can create universes with all possible permutations of all of those states of all of those particles, and you *still* end up with a finite, countable number of possible universes in the multiverse.

 

The SciAm article also went to the further step of defining how much "space" that multiverse would take up (the word "space" here being used in it's odd-ball, space-time definition.

 

Its a really big number, but its *not* infinite! :)

 

Factorials of large powers of 10,

Buffy

[CraigD]

What proof does man have of our universe just being one of infinite?

That depends on what you mean by proof. If you mean: “a scientific experiment that could support or disprove the claim”, then the answer, to the best of my knowledge is “none”. If you mean: “an useful explanation of a scientific theory that uses the claim”, they answer is: The many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, and its many variants.

 

As the name states, the MWI is not itself a theory, but an interpretation, or “guide to understanding” the theory of quantum mechanics. It’s an alternative to the more common Copenhagen interpretation. There are many interpretations of quantum mechanics, some better, some lesser known.

 

In short, MWI explains why quantum physics describes reality as a “superposition of states” in which definite outcomes don’t occur, while, in the everyday world we perceive, definite outcomes always occur, and we never directly perceive superposition of states, by describing our everyday world as one of a very large, but finite, number of “parallel universes”, also called “word-lines”. Because, in MWI and other interpretation of QM, physical reality must still obey the laws of QM, these interpretations can’t have any effect on reality – the many parallel universes of MWI can no more interact with one another than they can under the Copenhagen interpretation, where no such universes are imagined.

In a nutshell, "I" have had many out of body experiences.

I have also had many "near death" experiences where I found myself in extreme situations and have experienced paranormal, mystic, and psychedelic experiences naturally.

Having had such experience myself (though never a NDE), I believe wine’s and others claims of having had them, and suspect our experience were to some extent similar. However, I’ve read a lot about, and personally conducted experiments to determine if these experience were perceptions of something existing outside of me (that is, something that would exist if I did not), consistently arriving at the conclusion that they were not. Though awe-inspiring and sometimes life-altering, I’ve concluded that these experiences are similar to what I do when I imagine, daydream, or dream, not to what I do when I watch, listen to, feel, smell, or taste something existing outside of me. Although this makes these experiences no less wonderful and profound, it leads me to not pursue physics theories to explain them as features of reality independent of my physical existence, like the Earth, Moon, Sun, and distant stars, but to pursue theories of neuroanatomy and neurophysiology to explain them as features of the function of my brain.

[Pyrotex]

Having visions, strange waking dreams, NDE-style images, so-called out-of-body experiences are not that rare.

 

They are a common by-product of having the most complex known structure in the Universe between our ears. Many chemical imbalances, emotional stresses, beverages, drugs, herbs, smokes, direct brain stimulation during brain surgery, and various unfortunate developmental flaws in our brains can, under the right conditions, produce any or all of these phenomenon. Ancient Greek oracles (before 200 AD) used to induce these kinds of hallucinatory states of mind in a variety of ways, so they could "foretell" the future.

 

I had a college friend who eventually had to go on medication to prevent her from having these "visions" too often.

 

But they are not an "alternate reality" or evidence of parallel universes. Or proof that Alfred Hitchcock is trying to contact you from the 'other side'. :)

[TheBigDog]

This thread has been an inspiration for a new thought on my Invisible Universe thread. Thanks!

 

Bill

[HydrogenBond]

The idea of multi-universes is as old as religion. The gods always had their own non material realm apart from man. Science is rediscovering this old theory because it is needed to make some of the n-dimensional math models work.

 

This leads to a strange paradox. Science is postuating the very things that help justify ancient assumptions of gods, yet denies the validity of spiritual realms at the same time. It sort of a copyright battle, since the ancients did not file for protection at the copyright office, allowing science to take credit for the idea.

 

It would be interesting if one of the religions, demonstrated that the multi-universe and multi-dimensional concepts were already invented before science came along and required science pay royalties to use it. Or better yet, require science mention the ancients examples of heaven and hell if they with to use their copy righted idea.

[CraigD]

The idea of multi-universes is as old as religion. The gods always had their own non material realm apart from man.

I disagree.

 

Though many religions contain the idea of a “land of the gods”, in every pre-17th century tradition of which I’m aware (eg: Mount Olympus in Greek mythology, Asgard in Norse), these places are consistently described as existing in the same universe as the mundane world. Prior to the widespread acceptance of the idea that other planets in the solar system, and later, possible planets around other stars, were potentially a place that humans or gods might inhabit, these realms were usually thought of as being on the surface of the Earth, or in the air above it. Only when scientific evidence appeared to refute the idea that the gods existed in material form on high mountains, across wide oceans, high above the ground or on other planets, did the idea that they existed only in a “non material realm” appear.

 

Although I’ve previously posted similar response (see ”The coevolution of relegion ideas of heaven and scientific ideas of astronomy, etc.” and ”The history of relegious ideas of ‘other realms’”), I’ve yet to see presented any evidence, or even argument, supporting the claim of an ancient origin of many-world ideas.

Science is rediscovering this old theory because it is needed to make some of the n-dimensional math models work.

 

It’s important, I think, not to confuse scientific theories that call for additional (more than 4) dimensions (eg: the 26 or 10 required by most string theories) with the MWI. The many “parallel” world-lines of the MWI are not, as is sometimes assumed by people unfamiliar with the interpretation, separated by a “fifth dimension” that can be traversed to allow interaction between them – they are, in all but the most speculative versions, entirely “causally separate”, with no physical interaction between them possible. In a strict sense, a version of the MWI that predicts interaction between world-lines would not be an interpretation at all, but a theory – the predictions of such a theory can, in principle, be experimentally tested to support or refute it.

This leads to a strange paradox. Science is postuating the very things that help justify ancient assumptions of gods, yet denies the validity of spiritual realms at the same time.

The MWI leads, I think, to far stranger claims. According to it, there exists a world-line not our own in which every physically possible, no matter how improbable, occurs. In principle, such a world-line could have a human history in which magic and/or miraculous events are everyday, verifiable occurrences. After all, the on-demand transmutation of a bit of water into alcohol is not prohibited by quantum physics, just very improbable.

It would be interesting if one of the religions, demonstrated that the multi-universe and multi-dimensional concepts were already invented before science came along and required science pay royalties to use it.

As I explained previously, I don’t think religion has prior claim to quantum physics or many of its popular interpretations. If one of the very old religions were able to claim inventors rights to one of many religious ideas, such as monotheism, messiahism, or Ragnaroc/apocalypse/etc, the royalties they could claim from later, more popular, richer religions, could be staggering. Imagining the roughly 200,000 followers of Zoroastrianism taking a cut of the worlds many gilded synagogues, churches, and mosques is an amusing, if fanciful, one.

[jungjedi]

human experience is a kind of chinese finger puzzle where we are confined in a narrow tunnel prison of experience.we cant look up into the future.maybe we can only be sentimental about the past with one experience layered upon another that do not have a single absolute point of reference.some say the big bang is.some say this is not.

the expereince of the fingers entangled together does not have a single point of view.there is the experience of being caught and the experience of the mind reporting on being caught.and we can be of MANY-MINDS and have multipul experiences in dealing with being caught and planning an escape and these experiences are themselves are all tangled up and layered together as well.

i do not know if this interpritation allows us to find a universe that we can deny being caught or a strategy in which one can hide being caught through obfuscation

[phoenixbyrd]

I'm very glad there's no such magical multiverse. It's almost as bad as the various religions in how it uses the concept as a crutch. MWI in my opinion is just pure fantasy, there is only this one universe and just because we don't fully understand exactly how it works in full doesn't mean we need to pull into play invisible universes. We need to focus on just this one and learn more about it, not confuse and complicate our understanding of it.

[CraigD]

I'm very glad there's no such magical multiverse. It's almost as bad as the various religions in how it uses the concept as a crutch. MWI in my opinion is just pure fantasy, …

I think there’s much confusion of the MWI, an interpretation of quantum mechanics, and the idea of a “multiverse” as it appears throughout popular fiction, from the 1970s “swords and sorcery” fiction of Michael Moorcock (who arguable coined the term) to countless present day books and movies.

 

The MWI is an interpretation – a technique for making more intuitively understandable – the broad theory of quantum mechanics. Like the interpretation to which it was intended to be an alternative, the Copenhagen interpretation, it in no way changes any experimental prediction of quantum mechanics, only provides a framework for students, theorists, and experimenters to be more comfortable with those weird, counterintuitive predictions.

… there is only this one universe and just because we don't fully understand exactly how it works in full doesn't mean we need to pull into play invisible universes. We need to focus on just this one and learn more about it, not confuse and complicate our understanding of it.

If the MWI is being used in this way, it’s being misused. Its purpose is to reduce, not increase, confusion, and inspire the imagination required to refine and expand physics theories.

[phoenixbyrd]

What causes the confusion is when they use example's of alternate realities/possibilities collapsing into one probability. Or something along those lines. Granted QM is hard enough to understand, I don't think they need to fill peoples head's with such dirty concepts as multiple realities/universes that don't exist. I've read a few books and watched a few documentary type programs about that particular interpretation, I just don't understand why they continue on with it when it's not how it works.

[InfiniteNow]

What causes the confusion is when they use example's of alternate realities/possibilities collapsing into one probability. Or something along those lines. Granted QM is hard enough to understand, I don't think they need to fill peoples head's with such dirty concepts as multiple realities/universes that don't exist. I've read a few books and watched a few documentary type programs about that particular interpretation, I just don't understand why they continue on with it when it's not how it works.

 

Probably because no one is able to support statements like the one in your post I've bolded. Can you back up this claim with a citation or reference (or several) that you've phrased in the absolute?